UKC Forums - hunt ?(night champion cast)

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-- hunt ?(night champion cast) (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=164254)

Posted by Joey Dunn on 08-21-2007 03:52 AM:

Hunt

The hunt is over. The dog can not be scratched.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 08-21-2007 03:55 AM:

I usually go to the tree after the hunt is over weather or not I'm the judge. To me it is a courtesy to the other handlers. I'm sure that there are many others like me.
If I go to a tree I look because I love to see a coon in the tree.I hunt dogs that I expect to see a coon over.

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Posted by UTVolGatorHater on 08-21-2007 05:09 AM:

OK I will ask this stupid question and see what answers I get. Ok we are all on a NTCH cast and I win the cast. The deadline is at 3 and we finish at 12 and I have time to get to the club house and I have a friend along on the cast. We all decide to turn loose at a feeder just for the fun of it right cause if the dogs take too long I can just leave my friend to get the dog. Me the judge turn loose. They go to a feeder and tree we walk there and guess what a grinner.......am I scratched? and if I am scratched what about the guy that was in second that went home? So if I am behind in a hunt it would be a good idea to go to everyone's tree that treed after the time is up because that might put me ahead of them right?

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Posted by TWISTER on 08-21-2007 05:50 AM:

i posted this ? because someone asked me and i said to scratch him but 2 different moh said no . so i was looking for a definate reply from ukc

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Posted by Russell Boyette on 08-21-2007 06:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
This is truely amazing. The rule is clear as a bell. We know when the authority of the judge begins and ends because rule#1 states that so clearly that even a 3 year old can understand it. We know that dogs hunting under ntch rules are scratched if they run, tree or molest offgame anytime during the authority of the judge because rule #6(k) states that so plainly that again, a 3 year old could understand it. And yet about half of you say you wouldn't scratch a dog hunting under ntch rules for treeing a possum after the hunt is over. This may be the best explaination yet for why we see so much bitch'in about hunts today. They know the rules, they just can't see fit to follow them.

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Lucky break on possum
Nite Champion rules. All four dogs treed on a possum. Judge say they have the rest of the 10 minute shine time to find a coon. Angry landowner comes out and demands they leave before the shine time is complete. Strike and tree for all 4 dogs is deleted. Lucky break.

JiM, shouldnt these have been scratched then? In a time-out, the cast is still under the authority of the judge. How come the all 4 dogs werent scratched their?

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Posted by wayne f on 08-21-2007 06:16 AM:

i havent been on a whole lot of casts but everyone i have been on either hunting or quiding we always check the card and sign it as soon as time is up,
once the card is signed the judges authority should end as i have seen quite a few cases where someone other than the judge turns the card into the moh.
is turning the card in by other than the judge a violation of the rules

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Posted by GA DAWG on 08-21-2007 07:50 AM:

SCRATCHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by on 08-21-2007 01:32 PM:

Russel, that situation is easily explained by following the rules again. You are allowed 10 minutes to look for a coon. Even if you find a possum in that first minute, you can still score plus points on that tree if you find a coon because you cannot scratch (ntch) or minus(reg.) if a possum and coon are found in the same tree. That tree would be plussed. Because the cast was shot at, they couldn't complete the scoreing of the tree, therefor it was deleted. This was a youth cast with all kids under 13 years old. Would you have them just duck and score with shots being fired so they could complete the scoring of the tree? They didn't. They deleted and got their dogs out. And the rules backed up what they did.

Posted by Russell Boyette on 08-21-2007 03:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Russel, that situation is easily explained by following the rules again. You are allowed 10 minutes to look for a coon. Even if you find a possum in that first minute, you can still score plus points on that tree if you find a coon because you cannot scratch (ntch) or minus(reg.) if a possum and coon are found in the same tree. That tree would be plussed. Because the cast was shot at, they couldn't complete the scoreing of the tree, therefor it was deleted. This was a youth cast with all kids under 13 years old. Would you have them just duck and score with shots being fired so they could complete the scoring of the tree? They didn't. They deleted and got their dogs out. And the rules backed up what they did.

Looks like the man who got scratched after the hunt was over should have got the full shining time to find a coon also, but then the hunt was over and the dog not declared treed, so i guss the judge would say he didnt get shining time.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 08-21-2007 03:40 PM:

Re: hunt ?(night champion cast)

quote:
Originally posted by TWISTER
the hunt time is over dog A wins the cast. he comes treed right after the hunt is over and the judge/guide walks in with the handler and the dog is under an old grinner. is the hound scratched. would like a response from ukc on this one

Yes, the dog is scratched per Rule 6(k).

Rule 6(k) In Nite Champion and Grand Nite Champion casts, dog is scratched for running, treeing or molesting off game during the authority of the Judge.

Although the hunt time has expired, the kicker is; "during the authority of the judge". Rule 6 (k) states that dogs (NITE & Grands) will be scratched for treeing offgame during the authority of the judge.

Next question. What time period is considered to be "during the authority of the judge"?

A: Rule 1 - (last two sentences) Authority of the Judge begins when he is officially designated and receives the scorecard. The authority of the Judge ceases when the scorecard is turned in to the Master of Hounds.

These are the rules that apply in situations as given by twister regardless of individual opinions.

Posted by Russell Boyette on 08-21-2007 03:44 PM:

Well, since you can be scratched on a tree after hunt time is out, then i wish the scorecard could be left open too! LOL Im sure you all know the feeling. Been dry holed all night, and your dog finally gets a track gwts hot on it, only to tree after hunt time is out.

Posted by coon dawg on 08-21-2007 03:52 PM:

Re: Re: hunt ?(night champion cast)

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Yes, the dog is scratched per Rule 6(k).

Rule 6(k) In Nite Champion and Grand Nite Champion casts, dog is scratched for running, treeing or molesting off game during the authority of the Judge.

Although the hunt time has expired, the kicker is; "during the authority of the judge". Rule 6 (k) states that dogs (NITE & Grands) will be scratched for treeing offgame during the authority of the judge.

Next question. What time period is considered to be "during the authority of the judge"?

A: Rule 1 - (last two sentences) Authority of the Judge begins when he is officially designated and receives the scorecard. The authority of the Judge ceases when the scorecard is turned in to the Master of Hounds.

These are the rules that apply in situations as given by twister regardless of individual opinions.

.......what you posted above is what confused me on the situation where some night champion dogs come into a treed possum and tree it, instead of finding a coon, and don't get scratched............even though the judge has arrived.........it is still a time in the hunt that is under the "authority of the judge"????

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Posted by Gibbo on 08-21-2007 03:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Russell Boyette
Looks like the man who got scratched after the hunt was over should have got the full shining time to find a coon also, but then the hunt was over and the dog not declared treed, so i guss the judge would say he didnt get shining time.

This is a good point. In this situation a handler must be given full shine time to find a coon if he ask for it. Even though this tree can not be plussed if a coon is found he can not be scratched either

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Posted by mjflores on 08-21-2007 04:31 PM:

Thanks Allen, I learned something there!

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-21-2007 06:03 PM:

Does anybody know the rules anymore??????

Posted by TWISTER on 08-21-2007 06:10 PM:

thanks for clearing that up for me i thought iwas correct but wanted to be sure.

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Posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE on 08-21-2007 06:23 PM:

Know the Rules

before you argrue something guys. This is one of the problems you run into in the cast where people think your trying to cheat them. As Allen said dogs will be scratch during or after for treeing a oppussum if caught.

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-21-2007 06:42 PM:

Re: Know the Rules

quote:
Originally posted by WLDCHINSANEJANE
before you argrue something guys. This is one of the problems you run into in the cast where people think your trying to cheat them. As Allen said dogs will be scratch during or after for treeing a oppussum if caught.

Unless it comes in to a closed tree!!!!!!!!! Which is stupid....

Posted by coon dawg on 08-21-2007 06:47 PM:

Re: Re: Know the Rules

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Unless it comes in to a closed tree!!!!!!!!! Which is stupid....

.......yeah.......that's the problem I have with it.........tree may be closed..........but it is still under the authority of the judge, during the hunt......you'd think there would be more reason to scratch one there than after the hunt is over?????

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Posted by on 08-21-2007 06:55 PM:

I will repeat this one more time then I'm done with it because I know when I'm talking to a brick wall that can't learn or doesn't want to learn. Dogs that arrive at a tree AFTER THE JUDGE are not considered to be treed. That is why you can't scratch a dog for treeing a possum if the dog come to the tree after the judge. A dog that runs, trees or molests off game is minused or scratched and a dog that comes in after the judge has done none of the three. Get it? No, you don't and prolly never will. So just go ahead and scratch the dog. This is UKC, you do what you think is right, not what the rules says.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 08-21-2007 07:06 PM:

Still have an issue with that one huh John? lol! Well........I guess we don't always have to agree on what's right or what's wrong. The main thing is to score things as they should be according to UKC's rules, policies and procedures during a UKC hunt. In this case, anytime dogs come into a tree "after the judge arrives" (during hunt time or otherwise) Rule 5 (b) would apply to those dogs. Which...........rule 5(b) states that dogs coming into tree will recieve minus strike points (during hunt time only) if coon is seen. Otherwise, you simply circle their strike points. Yes, even if there is a grinner in the tree.

Maybe it's one that should be addressed with your Breed Association for discussion and possibly a change in the future? Until that happens you need to apply 5 (b) and score as suggested above. Goes for you too, John! lol!

Posted by coon dawg on 08-21-2007 07:07 PM:

............

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I will repeat this one more time then I'm done with it because I know when I'm talking to a brick wall that can't learn or doesn't want to learn. Dogs that arrive at a tree AFTER THE JUDGE are not considered to be treed. That is why you can't scratch a dog for treeing a possum if the dog come to the tree after the judge. A dog that runs, trees or molests off game is minused or scratched and a dog that comes in after the judge has done none of the three. Get it? No, you don't and prolly never will. So just go ahead and scratch the dog. This is UKC, you do what you think is right, not what the rules says.

..............Jim.............I do not question what the rule SAYS...........and will, of course, abide by them.................the rule is what it is............I just have trouble with the LOGIC of not scratching a dog, who, under authority of the judge, is treeing a possum......REGARDLESS of when the judge, or dog, gets there..........peace........ps-and yes, Jim..........I am one hard headed SOB................lol

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Posted by coon dawg on 08-21-2007 07:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Still have an issue with that one huh John? lol! Well........I guess we don't always have to agree on what's right or what's wrong. The main thing is to score things as they should be according to UKC's rules, policies and procedures during a UKC hunt. In this case, anytime dogs come into a tree "after the judge arrives" (during hunt time or otherwise) Rule 5 (b) would apply to those dogs. Which...........rule 5(b) states that dogs coming into tree will recieve minus strike points (during hunt time only) if coon is seen. Otherwise, you simply circle their strike points. Yes, even if there is a grinner in the tree.

Maybe it's one that should be addressed with your Breed Association for discussion and possibly a change in the future? Until that happens you need to apply 5 (b) and score as suggested above. Goes for you too, John! lol!

..................agreed, my friend......lolol........so it is, so it shall be..........lolol

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Posted by Bear on 08-21-2007 08:09 PM:

"A: Rule 1 - (last two sentences) Authority of the Judge begins when he is officially designated and receives the scorecard. The authority of the Judge ceases when the scorecard is turned in to the Master of Hounds. "

This is where the problem accurs.How many times have you seen a judge after hunttme has expired finish the card and hands it to someone else and says"you take this back,Im going home.?

I never said in this post that I disagreed with the rules.(may question afew)But there needs to be some consisity in procedures for judges.In my opinion you must be required to hand the card back in and in NtCh and Gr cast go to EVERY tree regardless of wiether hunt time is up or not.If these procedures are not followed,scratch the whole cast.

Posted by on 08-21-2007 09:38 PM:

There is no rule that requires the judge to return the card. In fact, the rules state the card can be handed off to any cast member if the judge quits the cast. What diff does it make who returns the card. The rules allow anyone to return the card and why shouldn't it? There is nothing requireing the judge or anyone to go to any tree after the hunt is over UNLESS the dog was declared treed before the hunt ended. I can't think of this situation ever coming up in hunt that I have been in , I don't doubt it has happened but I'd say it is far from common. It makes for a great disscussion as can be seen by the number of pages this thread has covered already but it prolly will get alot more milage out of this message board than it will ever get in the woods.

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