UKC Forums - All Grand versus Non

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-- All Grand versus Non (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=113836)

Posted by rgregory on 10-03-2006 02:53 PM:

Why don't tell the statistic from the first All Grand litter? They have certainly had time to prove there winning and reproducing ability.

Posted by Tim Chavis on 10-03-2006 02:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rgregory
Why don't tell the statistic from the first All Grand litter? They have certainly had time to prove there winning and reproducing ability.

I think it was a flop.

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Posted by rance56 on 10-03-2006 03:33 PM:

when all folks want to talk about is a dogs titles and wins and neglects mentioning how it operates in the woods, i head straight for the DOOR.

on the surface the AKC world champion bluetick sounds somewhat impressive, but when you find out there was 5 total blueticks and none won a cast in 3 nights of hunting, makes me draw a whole nother conclusion

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Posted by coon dawg on 10-03-2006 03:46 PM:

...........

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
when all folks want to talk about is a dogs titles and wins and neglects mentioning how it operates in the woods, i head straight for the DOOR.

on the surface the AKC world champion bluetick sounds somewhat impressive, but when you find out there was 5 total blueticks and none won a cast in 3 nights of hunting, makes me draw a whole nother conclusion

.......how ya been, Rance???...........huntin' much???

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Posted by Christy on 10-03-2006 03:48 PM:

WE CAN ALL...

SIT HERE AND WEIGH THE PRO'S AND CONS OF ALL GRAND VS. NOT, BUT IT REALLY DONT MATTER UNTIL YOU PUT YOUR LIGHT AND BOOTS ON AND HEAD TO THE WOODS.

AFTER ALL THE DOG DONT KNOW IF IT'S ALL GRAND OR NOT.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 10-03-2006 03:50 PM:

My spin on it is that if the cross on one good male dog that happens to have parents and grand parents that were grand nights is made on a good female that had parents that were the same, and the outcome is that a large percentage of the offspring turn out to be good dogs...the cross was a success....

But it in no way guarantees you success in the breeding pen. The main question in my mind is which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do the "all grand" studs get more breedings because they are all grand, or do they get those breeding due to the ability to reproduce? How many all grand crosses simply don't work out in relationship to the PR crosses that don't pan out.....

These are questions that we will never be able to answer. Mr. Treadwell has collected a kennel full of the finest reproducing females in the country. One of his criteria was that the females be of "all grand" decent....he is by all accounts selective on the sires that he uses, to compliemnt the females that he has....they sell for top dollar to fellows who have one thing in common, they intend to take those pups and win at competition hunts with them. We don't know what percentage of the pups raised and sold in this manner "turn out" becuase we don't have a reliable measuring stick.

Nobody ever askes how many hunts a dog had to compete in to make NT Ch, GRNT, PCH or any other degree....and if you are making "all grand" crosses without respect to ability of both of the parents and making educated decisions, you are breeding paper to paper. Your chances of having offspring that will suit the majority of hunters is no better than the guy who's male crossed the kennel fence and bred your best female....simple as that!

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Posted by Copenhagen on 10-03-2006 04:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
IF SO, I KNOW WHERE ONE OF HER "SO CALLED" ELUSIVE WINS CAME FROM.

FINES CREEK NC.

AND I CAN PROMISE YOU, YOU DONT EVEN WANT TO KNOW THE DETAILS ON THAT NIGHT!!!!

BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE DIDNT WIN, AND GOT CHEATED TO NO END, I STILL HAVE TO LAUGH AT HOW FAR SOME PEOPLE WILL GO TO WIN, JUST TO SAY "I FINISHED SO AND SO OUT TO GRNTCH LAST NIGHT."

BOY WAS THAT EVER A NIGHT TO REMEMBER.

WELL FROM WHAT I HEAR TELL FROM PEOPLE IN YOU NECK OF THE WOODS IS THAT SID WAS TITLED OUT ON FEEDER BUCKETS. THEY ALSO TELL ME HE IS A PRETTY NICE FOXHOUND, AND THAT YALL WERE THINKING OF TAKING HIM TO A FOXPEN TO BREAK HIM . ANY TRUTH TO IT?

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Posted by rance56 on 10-03-2006 04:22 PM:

Re: ...........

quote:
Originally posted by coon dawg
.......how ya been, Rance???...........huntin' much???

john,

man, ive been busy and wore out as heck, but things are actually real good for the most part. here lately been going about 3 nights a week, the cool weather has been great. finally got sassy back in the woods. im ready for gun season to get.

hows things up your way, got a big one picked out yet?

rance

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Posted by coon dawg on 10-03-2006 04:27 PM:

Re: Re: ...........

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
john,

man, ive been busy and wore out as heck, but things are actually real good for the most part. here lately been going about 3 nights a week, the cool weather has been great. finally got sassy back in the woods. im ready for gun season to get.

hows things up your way, got a big one picked out yet?

rance

........glad to here things are goin well for ya.................killed one doe so far, let several medium size bucks go................had one nice one in range, looked to be 4 1/2............let him go........there is a sho' 'nuff goodun I'm after!!...............coon huntin a little........usually have 7-8,000 private acres to coon hunt on.......shrinks to about 700 while deer season is in.......take care, bud........

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Posted by kyhunter50 on 10-03-2006 05:39 PM:

I would rather have one out of sid.

Posted by locknut on 10-03-2006 07:43 PM:

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! My dog's daddy died a lowly nite champion, so he'll never be all grand!!!!!!!!! Guess I should cull him and start over, or at least have him neutered, because he'll never be able to reproduce!!!!!!! I'M DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Tim Chavis on 10-03-2006 09:00 PM:

Locknut just don't tell him and he will be alright.

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Posted by Christy on 10-03-2006 09:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Copenhagen
WELL FROM WHAT I HEAR TELL FROM PEOPLE IN YOU NECK OF THE WOODS IS THAT SID WAS TITLED OUT ON FEEDER BUCKETS. THEY ALSO TELL ME HE IS A PRETTY NICE FOXHOUND, AND THAT YALL WERE THINKING OF TAKING HIM TO A FOXPEN TO BREAK HIM . ANY TRUTH TO IT?

FIRST OF ALL, WE HUNT WHERE WE GET GUIDED TOO. WE WOULD PREFER WILD COONS, BUT THAT’S THE LUCK OF THE DRAW.

BOTH OF SID’S 1ST PLACE WINS WERE ON WILD COONS, ONE WAS IN MURPHY, N.C. THE OTHER WAS IN BANKS COUNTY GA.

HIS 3RD PLACE WIN WE GUIDED. HUNTED ONE FEEDER IN WHICH WE DIDN’T SCORE A COON, AND THEN TWO WILD SPOTS ON GAME LANDS IN WHICH WE SCORED ONE COON.

ONE OF HIS NTCH WINS WE WERE GUIDED TO JIM MCCONNELL’S FEEDERS.

IF YOU KNOW JIM MCCONNELL, YOU KNOW IF HE SHOWS UP TO A HUNT, HE’S USUALLY PACKING A COON DOG.

YOU MIGHT RECOGNIZE HIS LINE OF DOGS. THEY COME FROM COWEE CREEK IN FRANKLIN. YEP, COWEE CREEK CLINT, AND COWEE CREEK CHARLIE BOTH FINISHED TO GRNTCH RIGHT ON THE VERY SAME SPOTS SID GOT HIS WIN.

DOES THAT MAKE THEM ANY LESS A COON DOG OR A REPRODUCER? I THINK NOT.

SID’S OTHER NTCH WIN CAME FROM BRYANT HOLLDAND’S SPOTS.

YOU MIGHT KNOW A DOG HE USED TO OWN AND THAT HE FINISHED TO GRNTCH. LAUREL CREEK STYLISH BOZO? YEP, SID GOT HIS NTCH WIN AT THE SAME SPOTS HE FINISHED TO GRNTCH.

DOES THAT MAKE HIM ANY LESS A COON DOG OR A REPRODUCER? I THINK NOT.

NOW, AS FAR AS THE FOX GOES, IF HE’S RAN ONE WE HAVENT CAUGHT HIM AT IT YET. YOU CAN BETTER BELIEVE IF WE HAD, WE’D BE HONEST ABOUT IT.

BUT NOW A POSSUM, YOU BETTER BELIEVE HE’LL TREE ONE. WE NEVER SAID HE WOULDN’T.

SID IS NOT A PERFECT DOG, NOR WILL HE EVER BE.

WE HAVE NEVER PROCLAIMED HIM TO BE, NOR WILL WE EVER.

ALL I CAN SAY IS BRING YOUR LIGHT AND BOOTS, AND MAKE YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

CAUSE WE AIN’T SKEERED TO SHOW HIM ANY NIGHT OF THE WEEK YOU'RE READY.

Posted by walkermannc on 10-03-2006 09:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Copenhagen
WELL FROM WHAT I HEAR TELL FROM PEOPLE IN YOU NECK OF THE WOODS IS THAT SID WAS TITLED OUT ON FEEDER BUCKETS. THEY ALSO TELL ME HE IS A PRETTY NICE FOXHOUND, AND THAT YALL WERE THINKING OF TAKING HIM TO A FOXPEN TO BREAK HIM . ANY TRUTH TO IT?

boy ole sid sure has got you fired up for some reason

did ole sid spank you arse at a hunt or something?

i'm from mid nc, and i've called contacts and talked to them, never had anything bad to say about sid or his pups. very honest folks will tell you up front he aint perfect, but he's a coon dog

Posted by nooc hunter on 10-03-2006 09:33 PM:

Posted by TJ RAYFIELD on 10-04-2006 12:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Buckshot
Lets look at your numbers this way:

80% of Fall 2004 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Fall 2004 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Spring 2004 pups are NOT All Grand Sires
80% of Spring Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

70% of Fall 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
70% of Fall 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

80% of Spring 2005 pups are NOT from All Grand Sires
90% of Spring 2005 Breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires

78% of all pups and breeders are NOT from All Grand Sires.

Just shows me that coon dogs tree coons. Not Papers!!

HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH THAT ONE!!!!!!!

Posted by BRENT LIPSCOMB on 10-04-2006 11:38 AM:

SAM WHEN YOU CALLED ME YOU SEEMED REASONABLE.TALKED TO DUKE AT AO.SAID YOU WERE A GOOD GUY,BUT YOURE OWN WORST ENEMY IS YOURESELF,WE KNOW YOU ARE SMART,OR AT LEAST HOPE YOU ARE.YOU ARE-WERE A SCHOOL THEACHER? I DODNT KNOW WHICH.ONLY SO MUCH MONEY SOMEBODY IS GOING TO GAMBLE ON A PUP NO MATTER WHAT.WHY STIR THINGS UP.I AM JUST TRYING TO HELP,SO PLEASE DONT TELL ME HOW DUMB I AM,I ALL READY KNOW THAT.YOU HAVE A GOOD BREED STUD DOG.NOT EVERYBODY HAS AN ALL GRAND FEMALE AND YOU MAY BE LOSSING BUSINES.TRUST ME YOURE NOT A BAD GUY,MAYBE JUST MISSUNDERSTOOD.YOU HAVE A LOT OF TIME,AND I AM QUESSING MONEY TIED UP IN YOURE DOGS,DONT DESTROY WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.JUST TRYING TO HELP!YOU REALLY DIDNT SEEM LIKE A BAD GUY,AND ILL TAKE DUKES WORD FOR IT.

Posted by Mathman on 10-04-2006 05:27 PM:

Sackett Jr.

It's amazing anyone even bred to that piece of crap Sackett Jr. I mean, he wasn't even close to being All Grand. Seriously, this all-grand fad needs to go. I've got an untitled female that just happened to have the misfortune of being owned by a guy who doesn't competition hunt (ME). She's directly out of Sackett Jr. and her mother is out of Hayes and a Lipper bitch. In her day I'd have put this old female up against any Gr. Nt. out there. I've hunted with some gr.nt's that weren't worthy of sniffing her butt. If we get to the point where we only breed for "All grand" then we are going to leave some really quality hounds out of the gene pool. In fact, it looks to me like Sackett Jr. would have been left out. Does that really make sense?

Posted by cotton1 on 10-04-2006 08:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rance56
sam, i agree with you on this, but i dont agree you have to have all grand to have proven parentage and i dont agree all grand equals proven parentage in all cases. there is a lot inbetween all grand and junk, and somewhere in between is alot of dogs that are better and throw better than alot of the all grand stuff out there.

how many of those wins did you or the current owner guide?

ive just seen too many dogs earn titles and win a bunch of money to put a whole lot merit into them. not having titles and proven parentage will get you off my list, but just becasue you do have them dont make you a coondog or reproducer in my eyes cause ive seen alot of very sorry money winners and title holders.

local ukc hunts and mid level pkc pup derbys equal alot of easy wins imo

Never guided to own spot

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-04-2006 08:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Chavis
He had the bigest crooks he could find hunting them.

that is not nice to say.

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-04-2006 08:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
IF SO, I KNOW WHERE ONE OF HER "SO CALLED" ELUSIVE WINS CAME FROM.

FINES CREEK NC.

AND I CAN PROMISE YOU, YOU DONT EVEN WANT TO KNOW THE DETAILS ON THAT NIGHT!!!!

BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH WE DIDNT WIN, AND GOT CHEATED TO NO END, I STILL HAVE TO LAUGH AT HOW FAR SOME PEOPLE WILL GO TO WIN, JUST TO SAY "I FINISHED SO AND SO OUT TO GRNTCH LAST NIGHT."

BOY WAS THAT EVER A NIGHT TO REMEMBER.

Not the same Queen Dog!!

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-04-2006 08:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
JUST SO YOU KNOW..........

FACT:

SID WON 1ST PLACE IN HIS VERY FIRST HUNT HE WAS PUT INTO AND WAS HIGH SCORING DOG OVERALL, AFTER HE HAD BEEN SETTING ON A CHAIN FOR 9 MONTHS. (NATURAL ABILITY, I BELIEVE IS WHAT THEY CALL THAT.)

SID FINISHED TO NTCH IN 21 DAYS

SID FINISHED TO NTCH WITH TWO 1ST PLACES AND A 3RD

SID'S 3RD AND LAST FIRST WERE BACK TO BACK WINS IN THE SAME WEEKEND IN TWO DIFFERENT STATES!! HE WAS HIGH SCORING DOG ON THE LAST 1ST AS WELL.

SID HAS BEEN ENTERED INTO A TOTAL OF 9 NTCH CASTS. WITH 5 CASTS WINS AND 2 WINS THAT WENT TOWARDS GRNTCH, THE OTHER 3 WINS WE WERE BEAT BY A HIGHER SCORING CAST, ON THE TWO HE WON, BOTH OF WHICH HE WAS HIGH SCORING DOG OVERALL.

OUT OF THE 5 WINS SID HAS, HE WAS HIGH SCORING DOG OVERALL IN 4 OF THEM.

SO MAYBE WE WILL JUST KEEP PLUGGING ALONG WITH HIM, MAYBE WE WONT EVEN ENTER HIM IN ANYMORE HUNTS, WHO KNOWS. BUT AS LONG AS HE STAYS A CONSISTENT CAST WINNER, I COULD CARE LESS HOW LONG IT TAKES IF WE EVEN PURSUE IT.

IF WE WERE SO WORRIED ABOUT FINISHING HIM TO GRNTCH, WE'D BE HUNTING HIM AT ALL THESE HUNTS INSTEAD OF HIS PUPS.

BUT RIGHT NOW HE'S DOING WHAT HE DOES BEST, TRAINING PUPS AND AS FAR AS WE'RE CONCERNED AS LONG AS HE'S REPRODUCING LIKE HE IS, WE COULD CARE LESS IF HE EVER FINISHES TO GRNTCH.

WE COULD SET HERE AND COMPARE STATISTICS ALL DAY, BUT IT WONT PROVE ANYTHING.

MY POINT IS THIS, YOU SAY A GRNTCH IS WORTH MORE THAN A PR DOG.

I GUESS THAT DEPENDS ON THE DOG.

BUT PERSONALLY, I'LL TAKE A SELF MADE 'PR' COON DOG OVER A MAN MADE GRNTCH ANY DAY.

You so full of it, that you do not even get it.

You guys are competeing to make Grand Nite Champion, but hack at people that are already there.

If Grand Nite does not mean anything, then why are trying to achieve that goal?

Why do you call me a cheater, just because my hounds have achieve their goal.

It also takes more than one to cheat Christy. If you allowed someone to gain undeserved points, then you cheated as much as they did.

If you do not like titled hounds, the you do not need to play the game.

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Posted by cotton1 on 10-04-2006 08:32 PM:

Christy,

Have I been on your post cracking on sid, or saying how he is a cheat, etc. NO!

So get off mine.
Thank You

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Posted by TJ RAYFIELD on 10-05-2006 01:24 AM:

why does it matter?

if they have an all grand pedigree or not?who cares? I DONT.My dogs finished out just fine without being all grand.And they are'nt out of anything special.Sadie is a direct pup of Thunder's wild Clyde, and Kim is a grand pup of sackett jr. on top and southern pines jet on bottomn.Yeah congrats to you who do have a 5 generation all grand pedigree my hats off to you who have won and achieved this status honestly.yes i would like to own one of those 5 generation all grand pedigrees but when it comes down to it i'm not paying no 1,000 for a 6 week old puppy that isn't even guarnteed to live.just to get one I guess I'll just hunt my $%*# eaters until then. I also have hunted with plenty of these 5 generation all grand dogs not saying that mines better just saying my can hang with em just saying they are beatable unlike some folks get on here and advertise them to be.Not trying to start any more argumnets on here as I've read there are plenty just putting in my 2 cents worth.

Posted by cotton1 on 10-05-2006 12:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge

Nobody ever askes how many hunts a dog had to compete in to make NT Ch, GRNT, PCH or any other degree....and if you are making "all grand" crosses without respect to ability of both of the parents and making educated decisions, you are breeding paper to paper. Your chances of having offspring that will suit the majority of hunters is no better than the guy who's male crossed the kennel fence and bred your best female....simple as that!

Great Point!

I also like how you stated that no one askes how many hunts it takes a dog to complete a titled.

I have done that as a post before, and it went out the roof.

Does a dog that takes 20 hunts to make NT. Ch. as success as one that takes 3 hunts?

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