UKC Forums - All Grand ... Good Or Not?

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-- All Grand ... Good Or Not? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=111122)

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-13-2006 07:04 PM:

me and a freind

bought three pups out of one litter and wasted two years trying to train them and if the percenage is so much better don't you think at least one out of the three would make a decent dog! than i found out later pretty much the hole litter was a flop. he has bred this female to several different studs with very good success.

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Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 07:08 PM:

unfortunately everyone, a UKC NT title is the only way to officially gage a coonhounds performance and ablitity to go tree a coon. When there is a better means of measurement please show it to us. Sure, there are some NtCh and GrNtCh dogs that are pretty sorry looking as a hunting dog but...thats largly against the norm. Anyone thats wants to bring me 10 NtCh dogs that cant tree their own coon...and I'll show them 20 untitled 'PR' dogs that cant either...can ya see the point I'm trying to make?

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-13-2006 07:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mjflores
unfortunately everyone, a UKC NT title is the only way to officially gage a coonhounds performance and ablitity to go tree a coon. When there is a better means of measurement please show it to us. Sure, there are some NtCh and GrNtCh dogs that are pretty sorry looking as a hunting dog but...thats largly against the norm. Anyone thats wants to bring me 10 NtCh dogs that cant tree their own coon...and I'll show them 20 untitled 'PR' dogs that cant either...can ya see the point I'm trying to make?

I see it.......

. The only better way to judge a dog is to hunt with it and its ancestors and in many cases this is just not possible.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-13-2006 07:20 PM:

my hole

point is dont let fancy papers cloud your judgment unless you no the background of the papers and who the dogs where campained by in the hunts and there littermates. four big name stud dogs out of a cross doesn't make them reproducers if that cross was made five times to get them. get my drift!!!!

Posted by mjflores on 09-13-2006 07:22 PM:

Very true...thats why we are kinda forced to rely on something as a gage. I admit you cant base it all on titles, but thats all we have and I think you'll find that most titled dogs live up to the ability. Hunting style is something different, but for ability...not much more to go on.

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Posted by JIMHILL on 09-13-2006 07:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mjflores
so, just to make sure I understand you Jim, only fake pretend coonhunters buy "All Grand" dogs? Is that what you're saying?

not at all i just think its more for the new coon hunter u know to get there attention like when u buy a car no money down or payments for a year

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-13-2006 07:38 PM:

you also

have to pay attention to what is on the other end of the dog leash did this dog grandout on his performance or by his handler doing what ever it took to get a win. the dogs that go from zero to a grandnite in a limited amount of hunts raise a red flag to me. they are the ones i defenatly would want to hunt with before i bred to them, and it wouldn't be by themselves either.

Posted by john r. kincaid on 09-13-2006 07:49 PM:

If all I had to judge a dog by what was on the pedigree only, I would not be breeding to it wether it had an all Grand ped. or not. If a breeder does not do his homework and hunt with the Sire and Dam enough to truly know the dogs he is doing himself, the pups and the breed a severe injustice. The breeder should also do his homework and learn as much as he can about the traits of littermates and ancestors. I can just about garauntee any true coonhunter knows someone in there geographical area that owns a nice dog, that would be more than willing to let them hunt with them however much they feel they need to to decide what kind of dog they are looking at. If they wont then they are hiding something anyway. As for as these stud owners that say the dog is too valuable to risk turning loose then that proves they are interested in the money more than coonhunting, its all about the money to them! If you have on your list two dogs that are of equal ability with dogs you know to be reproducers on there pedigree and one is an all gr. the other not, I would probably breed to the all gr. But if Jeo down the road has a dog that I really like and it is just a PR dog that has never been in a hunt, and I know this dog is from a long line of dogs that were coondogs that joe owned and raised himself, then the papers would not even be a factor to me. Way too many people are reading the adds and beleiving all the hype about all gr. and breeding females just because of the name or the titles. I would not even think about considering breeding to a dog only on the basis of owners name, winnings of dog or hearsay. If I was interested you can bet I would want to see the dog go personally and probably a lot more then once, and I would like to see pups go out of the dog. I would also do my homework and find out all I could about the ancestors of the dog.

Posted by COOMER on 09-13-2006 10:43 PM:

if i walked up to you and said you could have either one of these 2 pups this one is all grand and this one is just out of a nt.ch and old sally which one are you going to take................be honest....no you dont get to look at the papers and both pups look the same before some one ask............lol

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-13-2006 10:53 PM:

if i couldn't see the papers

i would take niether one! or is the all grand for the same price!!LOL i bet not!

Posted by al jackson on 09-14-2006 12:27 AM:

Re: if i couldn't see the papers

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
i would take niether one! or is the all grand for the same price!!LOL i bet not!

he said take either one,that means FREE. I will take the all grand.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-14-2006 12:31 AM:

hey al

i see $$$$ signs in your eyes!!!

Posted by john r. kincaid on 09-14-2006 05:36 AM:

I would not take either one. Im not going to feed, give shots, spend endless hours of hard work trying to train, not counting gas money and every other expense, just on a chance that the dog might make a coondog. I would also see red flags as to why the owner is trying to give the pups away for free. Ive never had to try to get rid of pups, if you have good ones people will be on a waiting list waiting for them! I just got through wasting 18mos on a dog that I traded a beagle for. I really wasnt hunting the Beagle enough and the guy wanted her. He said he would give this really well bred Walker pup to me for her. The pup was four months old. That will be the last time I make that mistake! If I dont personally know the dogs the pup is out of, I dont care what the papers say, I wont own it! Not only that but it has not been too many years back, prior to DNA that a bunch of the papers didnt even fit the dog they were on. And if you dont beleive this went on a lot with the big names then you aint been around this sport long enough!

Posted by GA DAWG on 09-14-2006 06:15 AM:

All grand means nothing to me.I'm more of a bandwagon type! If a good sire comes along thats throwing nice pups.I'll jump on the bandwagon.I want one.I dont care what hes done in the hunts.I want to know what his offspring are doing.I'll take one as long as its Super staked and a performace pup.If it aint It want live here but I guess thats another thread in itself.

Posted by COOMER on 09-14-2006 01:34 PM:

dan dog,john

you guys are reading to much into the free offer...............you would take the all grand...........and i think everyone else would also............

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Posted by Russell Boyette on 09-14-2006 01:56 PM:

Re: if i couldn't see the papers

quote:
Originally posted by Dan Dogs
i would take niether one! or is the all grand for the same price!!LOL i bet not!

I thought paper meant nothing?

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Posted by mjflores on 09-14-2006 03:43 PM:

This thread is rediculous! A couple people who are jealous they dont have an All Grand pup or adult dog. Just like the people who bash nite hunts, cuz their dog keeps loosing, or the mac people who bash Microsoft, etc.., etc.., etc.. Whats the next topic? Chevy vs. Ford vs. Toyota?? How bout Superman vs. The Hulk? lol There's got to be something better to discuss other than how much All Grand pedigrees rule..or do they? lol

By the way, orange Koolaid blows...grape is the only way to go!

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Posted by wade hahn on 09-14-2006 07:46 PM:

All grand is good as long as you are still breeding for traits. Wether it is mouth,hunting style, tracking or treeing or what ever else you are looking to improve on. It will onle get better when outher lines get to be all grand and the gene pool gets bigger. Lets be honest thare will always be the people in it for the money and there will allways be the narrow minded jelous people out there too that call it a joke. But there are also people out there that want a to breed coondog to coondog that will complement each outher that are allgrand. Those are the people who are going to take it to the next level.

Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-14-2006 09:07 PM:

im not

narrow minded, i'll try anything once i bought a couple all grand from a highly advertised stud and a grnite gyp out of a advertised stud and they were worthless. so i just don't see the odds any better with all the hype!!

Posted by COOMER on 09-14-2006 10:17 PM:

mr.flores,mr. hahn

you are both right it is just being narrow minded................good answer

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-14-2006 10:29 PM:

works

both ways don't it!!

Posted by al jackson on 09-14-2006 11:23 PM:

dan dog

since you dont like the all grand and tittles mean nothing to you WHICH I DONT BELIEVE I THINK YOU WOULD DO ANYTHING FOR A TROPHY after seeing you have tittles on your dogs WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO IMPROVE THE COONHOUND BREED.

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-14-2006 11:43 PM:

for starters

i never once said titles mean nothing to me. i never once said papers mean nothing to me. all i said was i dont believe just because every dog in a pedigree is a grnite it increases the odds that a pup will turn out the way you want it to. and as for what im doing for the breed, im trying to maintain what i want in a coondog. i'll leave the rest up to you. jump in on the ground floor oppurtunity cause like the rest of the fads theres big bucks at the start until the country is full of it then there value will go down. look at the ped. of joker molly dolly spot and a few others like gary starns ok.sadie a piece of them came from right here!!NUFF

Posted by al jackson on 09-14-2006 11:46 PM:

good answer but i believe there is alot of raw tallent and ability in a all grand .

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Posted by Dan Dogs on 09-14-2006 11:55 PM:

might be

but i made a mistake thinking about the breeding in the ped. and not hunting with the parents or other pups out of that stud. pups out of the same mother did real good on two different studs.

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