UKC Forums - New Rule On Scratched For Fighting Question

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-- New Rule On Scratched For Fighting Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524675)

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-03-2019 12:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
So how many dogs do you normally scratch a year for fighting?

i don't scratch many in most cases honesty if the handlers don't care I don't either. I have been scratched. I have seen some others scratched that deserved it as well as some that should have been scratched but wasn't.
I was on a 4 dog cast that 2 dogs got treed maybe a hundred yards away and for about 4 minutes the cast and 2 spectators sat there and listened to them 2 dogs fight. You could hear a pin drop the whole time from all of us. It wasn't my dog so I sure didn't care. Best part was they was fighting over a slick tree. LOL
Seems odd I have culled more pups for fighting than most have seen hunting in the hunts all over the country side. I have decided I'm done culling any more for that reason and will just pass them along because I am seeing value in them for the future even though there not for me.

Posted by yadkintar on 12-03-2019 12:49 AM:

So a mean dog is like Bigfoot , lockness monster , or a yeti nobody has ever seen one but just like to keep talking about it ?

Tar

Posted by novicane65 on 12-03-2019 02:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
So a mean dog is like Bigfoot , lockness monster , or a yeti nobody has ever seen one but just like to keep talking about it ?

Tar

Exactly. Seems everyone has first hand knowledge of "mean" dogs but can't tell you when or where. I do think it'd be in good intrest of ukc to hold some type of seminar or such on what classifies a mean dog. Face barking to me isn't a "mean" dog trait, just a dog that has no manners. But for the few dogs I've seen that were rough I wouldn't say were mean. Because rough and mean to me are 2 totally different things, maybe I'm wrong.

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Posted by shadinc on 12-03-2019 02:42 AM:

Now that I've been enlightened I wonder why we ever had any mention in the rules of dogs fighting or attempting to fight. And if such a stupid rule was there, why did anybody propose changing it. Wouldn't it make as much sense to have a rule stating if a dog drives off in the judges truck he's scratched?

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Posted by Team Mafia 2 on 12-03-2019 04:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I don't feel this would be the correct way to score this situation. Nobody saw the aggressor. Farther more 1 dog is leashed which States now scratch.

I promise you this is how it’s done. Also it covers dogs In a dog box growling. Dogs being lead across the parking lot and walking right up in the face of another and them bristling up and growling. The dog that is on the leash CAN NOT BE SCRATCHED FOR FIGHTING!!!! It’s really not that freaking difficult to understand. You guys want to talk about rough dogs And cheaters and the MONEY GUYS only care about winning money well I’ll tell you what. Look at the PKC Nationals and World Hunt. Hunting Judges during the first round for years. HARDLY EVER A QUESTION!!! They literally go through week long events and Have 0 questions. After the first round at the UKC world this year it was like the Cast we’re playing 50 questions. The cheating SOB I drew out with tried every way In the world to get me scratched I believe we had 5 questions on a card 2 of them were to get me scratched all of which I won. Money and rough dogs aren’t ruining the sport ignorance is ruining the sport. This rule isn’t that difficult to understand!! It’s worked for YEARS EVERYWHERE ELSE!!! This keeps the scratch happy suckers like 50% of the cast experienced in September from scratching someone for something stupid that most of the time there dog didn’t even do. I bet there were no less than 30 scratching questions against first round cast winners this year at the world hunt under hunting judges these new fighting rules will help keep crooks from inventing ways to scratch people. Like when you put a male dog in the same side of the box as a grumpy female or When you bring 4 high strung dogs up for a Picture. I literally judged a pro hunt a few months back and they had a dog fight and one handler got dog bit during the picture. We had multiple dogs on a couple of trees and didn’t have any problems all night. Under the old rules they would have been eliminated when they weren’t mean in the woods at all. You people really make me question the brain power of the human race if it’s truly this hard for you to understand a pretty simple rule.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-03-2019 05:09 AM:

Here is the new rule.
6(b) For fighting or attempting to fight*, when off-leash
during the hunt, including any time-out periods.
When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the
aggressor only. If not known, scratch dogs involved.
Withdrawing to avoid dog being reported for
fighting is not permitted.
*16. DEFINITIONS
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and
2) interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of
the Judge. (This rule definition is has not changed in any way.)

I know some of you protesters are the same ones that did not want any changes made to help prevent babbling, did not want the rule changes to allow for silent dogs to not be scratched and wanted questions to be placed on the card after the situation took place and did not believe that off game should be seen to scratch even though we have to see coons to plus. If memory serves me right a couple of you had an on board disagreement over something about tied out dogs getting in a dog fight. Well now neither is scratched but you as individuals could still be wrote up for misconduct if it came to that.

*Also, for the record the scratch questions Dalton referenced in his above post did not pertain to anything to do with fighting or aggression, it was someone not knowing the rules or just trying hail Mary passes as the only way to win (it didn't work). I personally had never seen the likes of grasping at straws questions like I witnessed in setting at Oaks and the WC as I saw this year. It was insanity some of the questions that came in.
Competition coonhunting should not be about 75 ways to scratch an opponent, coondog up! I for one am glad that several scratching offenses are gone and several other rule changes benefit the dog treeing coons and eliminated petty rules that were more harmful to the new comers.
Many of you need to go with Cheyenne's philosophy that some you win, some you lose but there will be another every night but Sunday. Go into it with a good attitude instead of a win at all costs or that I'm going to get cheated chip on your shoulder, the outcome may just surprise you.

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Posted by Lance Laymon on 12-03-2019 02:31 PM:

I dont know what mean or rough means to some people, but I have seen 5 dogs scratched in casts for fighting just this year. I believe 4 more should have been. This is in the limited hunts Ive been too. If you have never been on a cast with dogs fighting you are very lucky or willfully ignorant. Fighting dogs have ruined young hounds. I believe the owner should be punished as well as hound.

Posted by johnny reb on 12-03-2019 04:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
I dont know what mean or rough means to some people, but I have seen 5 dogs scratched in casts for fighting just this year. I believe 4 more should have been. This is in the limited hunts Ive been too. If you have never been on a cast with dogs fighting you are very lucky or willfully ignorant. Fighting dogs have ruined young hounds. I believe the owner should be punished as well as hound.

5 scratched and 4 more that should of been this year alone .That has got to be a record for someone to be involved with for a year.

Posted by novicane65 on 12-03-2019 04:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
I dont know what mean or rough means to some people, but I have seen 5 dogs scratched in casts for fighting just this year. I believe 4 more should have been. This is in the limited hunts Ive been too. If you have never been on a cast with dogs fighting you are very lucky or willfully ignorant. Fighting dogs have ruined young hounds. I believe the owner should be punished as well as hound.

IMHO, if you or anyone is worried that their young dog is going to get "ruined" by another man's dog, "DO NOT TAKE IT TO A HUNT!!!!!" I think what you're classifying as mean is not what most would call mean. Now out of 9 hunts with "mean" dogs how many did you go to without "mean" dogs? I'm not saying your dog is mean but you might want to check what you're leading if you're consistently seeing mean dogs,. Just saying

Posted by Lance Laymon on 12-03-2019 06:54 PM:

Most casts I go too I dont see any dog fights, but some are posting dog fights dont happen. I wanted to post my personal experience from hunts in 2019. I did hunt in an unusually high number of casts for me this year.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 12-03-2019 07:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
IMHO, if you or anyone is worried that their young dog is going to get "ruined" by another man's dog, "DO NOT TAKE IT TO A HUNT!!!!!" I think what you're classifying as mean is not what most would call mean. Now out of 9 hunts with "mean" dogs how many did you go to without "mean" dogs? I'm not saying your dog is mean but you might want to check what you're leading if you're consistently seeing mean dogs,. Just saying

If You have a nice young dog and dont care if it gets chewed on in a cast you definitely look at coonhunting differently than me. I didnt classify any dog as mean I said they were scratched for fighting, but if you dont call that mean what do you call it? Also please refrain from judging my dogs until you have hunted with them. You wont see me making excuses for dog fights in a coonhunt.

Posted by johnny reb on 12-03-2019 07:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
If You have a nice young dog and dont care if it gets chewed on in a cast you definitely look at coonhunting differently than me. I didnt classify any dog as mean I said they were scratched for fighting, but if you dont call that mean what do you call it? Also please refrain from judging my dogs until you have hunted with them. You wont see me making excuses for dog fights in a coonhunt.

I don’t think there’s anyone that goes out wanting there young dog to get chewed on. I think what novacaine65 was getting at is once there off lead there nothing you can do and anything can happen. Whether that’s getting on a road and getting hit or getting chewed on and if that one instance is going to ruin the dog don’t take it to a hunt. Just hunt it with dogs you know until the dog is mature enough to handle the situation if you happen to get with a rough dog.

Posted by novicane65 on 12-03-2019 08:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by johnny reb
I don’t think there’s anyone that goes out wanting there young dog to get chewed on. I think what novacaine65 was getting at is once there off lead there nothing you can do and anything can happen. Whether that’s getting on a road and getting hit or getting chewed on and if that one instance is going to ruin the dog don’t take it to a hunt. Just hunt it with dogs you know until the dog is mature enough to handle the situation if you happen to get with a rough dog.

that's exactly what I was saying. I just didn't think I needed to say that word for word.

Posted by novicane65 on 12-03-2019 08:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lance Laymon
If You have a nice young dog and dont care if it gets chewed on in a cast you definitely look at coonhunting differently than me. I didnt classify any dog as mean I said they were scratched for fighting, but if you dont call that mean what do you call it? Also please refrain from judging my dogs until you have hunted with them. You wont see me making excuses for dog fights in a coonhunt.

if I had a dog and was worried about it being chewed on during a cast I (a) would w/d or (b) wouldn't enter the dog to start with. Hunts aren't for young dogs that are inexperienced. I don't care what kind or type of dog you're leading its yours not mine. As long as you're happy with it that's all that matters.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 12-04-2019 01:38 AM:

I would agree with you for the world hunt or autumn oaks , but around here for the small local hunts if it werent for young dogs we wouldnt draw enough dogs for a cast

Posted by Lance Laymon on 12-04-2019 01:38 AM:

I would agree with you for the world hunt or autumn oaks , but around here for the small local hunts if it werent for young dogs we wouldnt draw enough dogs for a cast

Posted by Pat Bizich on 12-04-2019 05:26 AM:

Absolutely last post on subject.
We live in an imperfect world ,with imperfect owners , with imperfect dogs, and imperfect rules.
Just to clear the air, I am not posting to stir controversy or to hurt sensitive peoples feelings that think this new rule is the greatest thing since white bread.
Nor am I trying to perpetuate the controversy. Just contributing to the discussion.
Obviously there are those of us that disagree for our own reasons.
This incident happened on a 4 dog cast. Does not matter where or who owned the dogs. But it is not fictional and I can supply names for the proof.
Hunt was over. Dog A was treed alone. Dog D was being searched for by its owner. Dog C My dog was trailing about 500 yards in deeper. Dog B we did not know where it was.
I went with the owner of Dog A to retrieve his dog off tree. As we neared the tree . He was out in front of me. He was leashing his dog. Dog B which I want to mention was a younger dog. Came in from behind me. I hollered up to A handler here comes Dog B. He yelled back for me to catch it. Too late. It passed me . Proceeded into the tree . In a matter of seconds as soon as B reached the tree Dog A attacked Dog B. I ran the last several feet to help break up the fight.
Dog A was in full attack mode. Like it lost its mind.Dog B was rolled over on its back . Dog A was ripping at Dog B chest then its neck . Like a dog attempting to kill actually shaking its head while latched onto Dog B. I even yelled she's trying to kill her. (both were females).Dog A was lock jawed on Dog B. We could not get Dog A off B. There was a lot of hollering I can tell you and attempts to separate. And I am not ashamed to say feared Dog A would turn her fury on either of us.
I got hold of dog A's hind legs and dragged it . She still continued to hold fast actually dragging Dog B with her. The owner is yelling get her off . I told him I was going to have to kick it. He said do what you got to do. I did what was necessary several times .There was no other choice. Dog A finally released Dog B. Dog A still had its leash on this entire time . I again dragged her by the hind legs away from dog B.
I finally was able to get hold of the leash and tie her back.
We immediately began tending to the much injured Dog B.
It had a gaping hole in its leg chest area. Bleeding profusely. It had a torn vein or artery.
Blood could be seen pulsating out of its body with every heart beat.
We concluded to pack the hole with leaves and mud to stop the bleeding.
He carried Dog B out while I led the instigating Dog A.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 12-04-2019 07:26 AM:

Pat Bizich

That's absolutely awful, no one should have to witness an incident like that. Rules are just like any law sometimes they protect a guilty party, in the case of a similar situation under the new rules the leashed dog would unfortunately get a free pass. Rules or not, the owner of the leashed dog should do the right thing and scratch his dog, take a write up and seriously evaluate what he is hunting. No rule would keep an honest man from doing what is right, not hide behind a rule that gives him a free pass. Dave

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Posted by shadinc on 12-05-2019 04:18 PM:

Dave, are you going to stand around and hold your breath waiting for a guy, who knows what kind of dog he's hunting, to voluntary scratch his dog when he has a rule protecting him?

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Posted by Josh Michaelis on 12-05-2019 07:31 PM:

Boys this rule has been in effect for a long time in the other kennel club. Contrary to popular belief it is simply not a problem.

Just hunt next month and see for yourselves

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-05-2019 08:54 PM:

I posted this on a different thread but putting it here too...

Seriously, in your years of coonhunting how many dogs have you had that have required a trip to the vet because of injury from another dog in a hunt?_
I've been married to Cheyenne now for over 27 years and he has hunted in hundreds of cast in that span of time and never once have we had one injured by another dog that required a trip to the vet. I'm not saying it never ever happens but this is an extremely rare occurrence. Dogs are much more likely to be injured by many other things (cars, fences, hogs snakes etc, ect)._
I for one have had eough of the sky is falling attitude.

__________

Posted by Roy Grant on 12-05-2019 11:21 PM:

All I can do is quote my Grandad. If you got a fast horse, a good lookin wife or a fightin dog. you had better be able to fight yourself.

Posted by shadinc on 12-06-2019 02:21 AM:

Well, tell Grandad he can scratch fighting dogs off his list. They're legal now.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-06-2019 03:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Well, tell Grandad he can scratch fighting dogs off his list. They're legal now.

No they are not...
6. SCRATCHING OFFENSES
Dog Related Offenses:
(b) For fighting or attempting to fight*, when off-leash_
during the hunt, including any time-out periods._
When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the_
aggressor only. If not known, scratch dogs involved._
Withdrawing to avoid dog being reported for_
fighting is not permitted.
*16. DEFINITIONS
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and_
2) interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of_
the Judge.

Posted by novicane65 on 12-06-2019 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
No they are not...
6. SCRATCHING OFFENSES
Dog Related Offenses:
(b) For fighting or attempting to fight*, when off-leash_
during the hunt, including any time-out periods._
When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the_
aggressor only. If not known, scratch dogs involved._
Withdrawing to avoid dog being reported for_
fighting is not permitted.
*16. DEFINITIONS
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and_
2) interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of_
the Judge.

You can tell them time and time again. It just falls on deaf ears. There's a bunch to be interpreted in the rules though. What 1 guy says is interfering another says its not. And I know I'm going to hurt feelers saying this but..... by a bunch of these replies, guys are looking for an easy way to get the competition out of the picture. And this is an easy way to that. I've asked several people about the interface part. Some say it's tree jacking, face barking, bumping other dogs on the tree. So I think there's some gray area that needs defined in my opinion. Because what some people are calling "mean" dogs that are far from mean. Face barking and tree jacking doesn't make it a mean dog. Is it a dog that hasn't been taught some manners, absolutely but not mean.

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