UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=)
-- UKC is going to be the new CKC ?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=347079)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maverick061106
Are the parent clubs not the same for most AKC recognized breeds in UKC? I really don't know, just asking... From what I understand, once AKC registers so many of a certain breed in the FSS, then they will attempt to fully recognize the breed and allow it to participate in all events, including conformation.

The strictly Coonhound events function basically the same way in both registries. Currently, the remaining hound breeds who are not fully recognized by AKC and are in the FSS, are no different than the UKC hounds... UKC hounds are not separated into "show bred" or "hunt bred" as AKC breeders have done with the Black and Tan Coonhound and others. In UKC, they are bred and intended to be dual purpose.

I do not intend to blame AKC for what is happening to the breeds. It is not AKC...nor the parent clubs...it is the breeders. The breeders who pay no mind to hunting ability in a hound, yet breed them anyway because they are "pretty." There are companion breeds that you can do that with...

---

__________________
Serena Galloway
www.ankhu.com

Home of Multi-BIS U-GrCh, Multi Group Winning/Placing AKC Bronze GCh, MBIS/MRBIS Int'l Ch, CKC Ch. Pineridge-Anji's St. Cecilia

Home of BIS/MRBIS U-GrCh., MBPIG CKC Ch., Int'l Ch, AKC GCh. Ankhu's Steamy Windows

No part of this message may be forwarded without permission

The parent club is the one who sets the standard, right? They are the one who states that it takes this standard of conformation to do the best job this dog can do. (Weather they pull sleds, hunt coons, or retrieve.)

I know in some breeds there is a split between field and conformation dogs. They usually look quiet different from each other. If the field dogs are better at doing their jobs, then why was the standard of conformation set as it is? Where they set by conformation people only?

EX: I have 2 standard poodles. They are brother and sister. My female, I would never breed. She has darn good conformation, but she is very laid back. You couldn't pay her to retrieve.(what poodles were originally bred to do) She is also pretty soft in temperament. Now her brother on the other hand, has great conformation and will swim and retrieve all day. Anything I ask of him, he is willing to do. He has both the personality, working ability and conformation to get his job done.

Not every puppy in a litter will be a champion. I actually think its probably quite rare to find a dog that could excel in every aspect of its breed. I'm sure its different for hounds, but in some breeds where people are just looking to make a quick buck, we need to protect our dogs. That's where the limited reg. come in for us. Hope this makes sense.

__________________
"To have a poodle, is a parti."

quote:

---

Originally posted by ozzcrow
[B]I know in some breeds there is a split between field and conformation dogs. They usually look quiet different from each other. If the field dogs are better at doing their jobs, then why was the standard of conformation set as it is? Where they set by conformation people only?[B]

---

__________________
'PR'Maverick's Smoke 'n Moonshine (two 1st place wins towards NITECH)

Limited Registration

Sorry I didn't mean to have this thread turn into what is responsible breeding and what is not...
Let that be a new thread .....

I had hoped this thread would be all about potentially swaying UKC to offer "limited" registration as an option... and the pros and cons to that subject.

LET ME CLAIRIFY as I think people don't realise...

Just because there is a limited registration "OPTION" doesn't mean BREEDERS have to use it

Any breeder can sell their pups with "UNLIMITED" or OPEN registration just by NOT ticking the "limited box. That is why it is called an option.

There are tons of AKC breeders that don't tick the box because they don't care or forget. You have to search for that box
It is not mandatory that ANYONE tick that restriction.

Any breeder can sell their pet pups with full registration, nothing would change for any breeders wishing to offer this.
NOTHING WOULD CHANGE...

The ONLY thing that would change, is an additional "OPTION" for breeders like myself, (that do work and show my dogs) BUT...
who wish to place pups in pet homes and not see them have the ability to register a dog to breed, without my knowledge or permission, with MY papers...(be deceitful basically).

Also another thing that would change is that UKC would have a drastic increase in Litter registrations...bringing more money to UKC and possibly increase in exhibitors in all ALL events... meaning more venues possibly...

I LOVE the idea of photocopying my spay/neuter certificates and mailing into UKC !!! OMG why I have not done that before or thought of it is irresponsible on my part !!
THANK YOU for the suggestion !!!!
Especially since I do microchip my pups too, so I can identify them...
THANK YOU I will be doing this in the future !!

__________________
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity"

a few breeders that I know of sell their dogs on AKC limited registrations, and in the contract they state that the limited will be lifted when proof of all proper health certifications has been submitted to the breeder.
Yet another good use of the limited registration.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heather Minnich

Also it is not the AKC who would ever push for any of the FSS breeds to get full breed recocgition with the AKC, that will only come from the parent breed club!

Many folks blame the AKC for things that they had nothing do with in their breeds. Most if not all changes to breeds come from the parent breed clubs.


Heather

---

__________________
Lisa
www.IlonaVizslas.com
Home to "Breeze" aka: M-BISS, M-BIMBS, GRCH. Vidor's Aura, TAN

I am all for limited privileges registrations. Along with them I am all for education on using them. In the hunting beagle program I feel there are many excellent hunt competition dogs that have faults that should remove them from breeding programs. Even undershot and overshot bites are comonly sold with full registration. Concerns me!

"UKC hounds are not separated into "show bred" or "hunt bred" as AKC breeders have done with the Black and Tan Coonhound and others. In UKC, they are bred and intended to be dual purpose." THIS QUOTE IS FALSE! UKC HAS CHANGED SIGNIFICANTLY IN RECENT YEARS! IF YOU BELIEVE THIS YOU ARE LIVING IN THE PAST!

Fact UKC Show beagles dogs are no longer required to show any type of hunt points.

Fact: Even in our own UKC hunting beagle format our top 10 TOTAL DOG list includes beagles that have no hunt instinct or poor hunt instinct. They are show dogs that have to make it through a two hour hunt but don't have to show any hunt instinct. Don't even need to pack in and me too running with the pack. The UKC TOTAL DOG PHILOSOPHY is a real joke and an embarassment to any serious TOTAL DOG breeder.

As for performance events I think it is great that in UKC we do stuff with our dogs. But calling a beagle that is great at performance events other than running rabbits, or a herding dog that does not herd, a terrier that does not go to ground, a coonhound that doesn't run and tree coon,............................TO CALL ANY OF THESE DOGS TOTAL DOGS is a far stretch. It would be great if some day UKC developed a program that recognized dogs that have both excellent structure and excellent performance at the task the breed was developed for. Until then it is still up to breeders to breed dogs that are correct in both form and function.

Sorry to chime in with th off-topic comments. I do strongly agree that MANY UKC dogs should have only limited priv. to compete but not be bred. Dan M

quote:

---

Originally posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL
It would be great if some day UKC developed a program that recognized dogs that have both excellent structure and excellent performance at the task the breed was developed for. Until then it is still up to breeders to breed dogs that are correct in both form and function.

---

__________________
Yvonne Moore
Henry County, Kentucky

~Tarascon Working Terriers~

GREWCH CH Corn Row Busy AWTA Veteran Earthdog CG

CH Huntmoor Reiver AWTA WCs CG

CH Tarascon Walker

GREWCH Tarascon Bailey JRTCA Bronze, AWTA Veteran, RIP my special girl.
~Bailey is the only terrier in the country to have earned the highest hunting honors in three working terrier programs~

CH Tarascon Jessie JRTCA NHC, RIP

Smoky Mountain Hillbilly AWTA WC, RIP Billy, we miss you


~and Silken Windhounds!~
~CH 'PR' WindnSatin Smoke 'n Water (Arwen)~
and
~CH 'PR' Hunters Run Cuda (Holly)~

CKC

Keep in mind AKC is helping the Canadian Kennel Club not the Continential Kennel Club both are CKC.

__________________
Kim Rowley
Charleston, West Virginia
AKC CH/ UKC GR CH 'PR' Flair's Lil' Bro "Eli"

more shows in new england w/Obedience classes

I too would like to see more UKC show...especially in New England!! and ESPECIALLY with more Obedience classes and not just Breed...don't get me wrong without you breed people standards would not be what they are....but, we also need Obedience too!
Just my .02 cents .....

Here’s my two cents worth J.

When I saw CKC, the Continental Kennel Club first came to mind. Heck, a friend of mine registered her husband with them, LOL! Richard has full registration papers, but has yet to enter his first show J J.

I will say that the AKC website overall is much easier to navigate and contains more information. With $50,000,000 in reserve, I guess they have a LOT of money in the budget to spend on the website.

I think the option of limited registration is a great idea. It isn’t going to absolutely prevent irresponsible breeding, but it can make it a bit more difficult and less convenient. The person then does have to take the time and expense to register their dogs with another registry. Obviously, not all byb are going to bother registering their dogs with anyone. For some reason, Joe Q. Public thinks that a registered dog guarantees a great, healthy dog. It amazes me to see people selling dogs that aren’t even purebred! People that are selling a mixed adult dog! There is something to be said that some people feel if it is free, it must be worth nothing.

Pet quality puppies. In every litter, there are going to be pet quality puppies even out of the best, most qualified parents. Those pet quality puppies should not be bred. Here in the states, NO registry has any regulations that prevent them from doing so. Responsible breeders and responsible owners should do their best to keep it from happening.

Form and Function. IMO, dogs should not be bred if they don’t possess both because I believe they are equally important. So, if that puppy at 7 to 8 weeks has conformational issues, then the ‘form’ requirement isn’t met. I don’t care how many performance titles that dog earns later in life. I still don’t agree they should be bred if they don’t have proper conformation.
I want to see titles at BOTH ends. It just kills me to see at a show you’ll have over 2,000 conformation entries and only 50 to 60 dogs entered in rally or obedience. Yeah, I know some of those conformation entries are puppies, but that’s only a small percentage. And, if you look at the entries in rally or obedience, you’re hard pressed to find any entries that are champions. On the other side, you’re hard pressed to find any champions that have any performance titles. (I used rally and obedience because they are typically are the only performance events offered at conformation events.)

Early spaying and neutering. For Rottweilers, it increases the chances of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...3?dopt=Abstract . I don’t know what research has been done in other breeds. I not saying that it shouldn’t be done ever. It seems that some people never get around to spaying or neutering and some people have little knowledge on dog breeding and aren’t capable of preventing a pregnancy (I’ve met people that didn’t know their female was in standing heat or that dogs can breed through chain link fencing.) so spaying and neutering puppies eliminates breeding in both cases.

Heather, Ozzcrow, Dan M,
Amen to each of you!!!!!
“If you want to see dogs with proper conformation and the ability to do the job they were bred for in the show ring, push the AKC, UKC and CKC to require a field or other applicable title before the conformation title is totally valid.” Heather
“I know in some breeds there is a split between field and conformation dogs. They usually look quiet different from each other. If the field dogs are better at doing their jobs, then why was the standard of conformation set as it is? Where they set by conformation people only?” Ozzcrow
“As for performance events I think it is great that in UKC we do stuff with our dogs. But calling a beagle that is great at performance events other than running rabbits, or a herding dog that does not herd, a terrier that does not go to ground, a coonhound that doesn't run and tree coon,............................TO CALL ANY OF THESE DOGS TOTAL DOGS is a far stretch. It would be great if some day UKC developed a program that recognized dogs that have both excellent structure and excellent performance at the task the breed was developed for. Until then it is still up to breeders to breed dogs that are correct in both form and function.” Dan M.

Rottweilers and the ADRK. FWIW, I thought I would share with you what one breed registry requires even though it is in Germany. I wish similar regulations existed here in the states. Two Rottwieiler registries in the United States offer BST’s. The United States Rottweiler Club www.usrconline.org and the American Rottweiler Verein www.arv.org .

I also find it intriguing that any dog which participates in a performance competition of the Verband Deutsche Hundewesen (European equivalent of the AKC), must have a BH. Sure would like to make it to the Europasieger some time (6,000 dogs, 50 rings .)

ADRK MINIMUM Breeding rules

Must have good (breedable) dogbase values. BOTH parents MUST have obtained a Ztp and BH and at least one parent MUST have a Schutzhund title. (Ztp – breed suitability test. BH – starting level of Schutzhund.) Hip results of both parents: A, B, C. C must be bred only with A. B must be bred with A or B. Elbow results of both parents 1, +/-, 1, and 2. ED3 is not allowed to breed. (ADRK has five elbow grades and elbows have been required since August 1, 1996. Hips have been required since Jan.1, 1970.) Minimum age for HD and ED exam is 15 months. Minimum breeding age: male 24 months, female 20months. Maximum breeding age: male 10 yrs. and female 9 yrs. Two litter controls are carried out by the breed warden: one at 2 days and one at 7 weeks. Max of litter in one year for a female. When she has only 1 or 2 pups, she can be mated after 6 months, when she has 9 pups or more, she may not be bred for 18 months. Maximum of 40 litter/year for a male. There are four breeding levels. Artificial insemination is not allowed. Tails have not been docked since June 1, 1998.

Though there are more guidelines, here are some of the requirements.
Ztp. Dogs must be at least 18 mos. Dogs are tattooed. Must have passed BH. Dog is measured, weighed, checked for disqualifying faults and critiqued. A set of glass eyes are placed next to the eyes of the dog and the color is given a grade. The dog has to pass a group-test and a gunshot reaction test. There is a bitework portion of the test – attack on handler out of the blind with an out, courage test of 40 meters with two stick hits, then out, disarming of helper and side transport. The results of the ZTP appear on the registration papers of the dog and also appear on their offspring’s papers.
The Koerung Test is the highest breeding test. Male dogs must be 36 months and females 30 months. Males must be Schutzhund III and females Schutzhund I. They must have passed the ZTP. In conformation shows, they must have been rated ‘SG’ at least three times. They must have passed the AD, an endurance test. If an animal passes the Koerung, it is only good for two years. After that, the animal must pass the EzA-Koerung (lifetime Koerung) Like the ZTP, the dog is measured, weighed, checked for disqualifying faults and critiqued. The group test is usually more difficult than for the ZTP and there is a gunshot reaction test. Bitework – search of two blinds, with bark & hold of helper, escape of helper, out, attack on dog with two stick hits, side transport, courage test of 50 meters, out, attack on dog with two stick hits and side transport to judges. Part of the ADRK website is in English, www.adrk.de and then click on the British flag. German breeders, breedings, and the results of the Koerungs are just some of the things that can be found.

spay/neuter and titles

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CindyH
Here’s my two cents worth J.

I don’t care how many performance titles that dog earns later in life. I still don’t agree they should be bred if they don’t have proper conformation.
I want to see titles at BOTH ends.

Early spaying and neutering. For Rottweilers, it increases the chances of osteosarcoma (bone cancer) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...3?dopt=Abstract . I don’t know what research has been done in other breeds. I not saying that it shouldn’t be done ever.

Regarding your "title at both ends" !! (I totally agree)
Well in UKC the Rally Obedience title goes in front of the dogs name !!! sigh
For example: URO1, UKC CHAMPION- "K-LAR'S CHOCOLATE IN ABSTRACT"

That is another topic on another thread that "I" had issues with.
Every other association has the working title AFTER the registered name and conformation title in front of the registered name.
Makes for easy reference and people can quickly see a dog has accomplished working and or conformation titles without even knowing what the abreviations mean (yes...we should know...I'm just saying that is how simple that system is..)

Spaying and neutering... OK pet project of mine, so I have done a ton of research and yes .. I'm already heavily frowned upon for my choice...however there are other options especially for "males" like "Vasectomy" which is the same as human men are getting...that will leave a male dog with all his "parts" and hormones but just render him unable to reproduce...

I have seen way too many "mix" breeds in shelters and also advertised for sale in classifieds to the uneducated and unsuspecting public to have ANY chance open for one of my pups to be contributing.......

For example... My lesson learned ...

I did sell one male puppy intact (stunning dog) to a pet home where I really loved the people as we built and "email" relationship over several months....she outlined to me why she wanted an intact male and swore she would neuter him by THEIR vet later in life. I really trusted (I know... ha ha ...) this couple, their reason well thought out and expressed. They also drove over 6 hours to pick up their puppy (I know we have all done that.... ) but still I was impressed...

Well she has kept in touch and he really is in a really great home.

However now 1 year later I get an email from her saying "I was thinking about showing "___" and I went to register him with UKC but they said I have to go through my breeder to get the registration as the "litter" was already registered by the breeder..... (which it was).

So bit of a "pickle" what to do... I mentioned I could send papers "perhaps" but would be on a "co-ownership" that would be lifted after a neuter was done (again trusting the certificate would be legit..)...

She was immediatly agreeable to this... and I was really excited she might be showing my puppy...so I sent her tons of information on working events she can show altered dogs in and Alter classes offered...

Then I get an email back asking that her name be "first" so she would get all correspondence and that she doubted she would be ready any time soon to enter any of the MANY events that I sent her information on...

what ????

Then why did she want the UKC papers and info to be sent directly to "her"... hmmm well maybe I'm paranoid but the fact that UKC offers "unlimited" registration to "limited" AKC registered dogs did enter my mind...

SSSSooooooo totally Kicking myself on placing this dog "intact" in a pet home... I could have refused to place a puppy with them unless they conceeded to a vasectomy or... neuter... and I didn't

I do have an example of pediatric neutered dog and intact dog from the same litter on my web page to illustrate that difference I have found....
http://www.bijoupoodles.com/Spay.html
however all dogs that are on my web page that are in pet homes (with one exception) are spayed or neutered so you get a pretty good idea anyway...

Pricing... my Vet went up in price this year...
Neuter $45.00 Vasectomy $90.00
Spay $65.00 Tubal $130.00

__________________
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity"

Re: spay/neuter and titles

quote:

---

[i]Originally posted by Bijoupoodles
Pricing... my Vet went up in price this year...
Neuter $45.00 Vasectomy $90.00
Spay $65.00 Tubal $130.00 [/B]

---

__________________
Serena Galloway
www.ankhu.com

Home of Multi-BIS U-GrCh, Multi Group Winning/Placing AKC Bronze GCh, MBIS/MRBIS Int'l Ch, CKC Ch. Pineridge-Anji's St. Cecilia

Home of BIS/MRBIS U-GrCh., MBPIG CKC Ch., Int'l Ch, AKC GCh. Ankhu's Steamy Windows

No part of this message may be forwarded without permission

Wow, wonder why it's so expensive there?? Cost of living in my area is high, but vet costs seem to be (fairly) reasonable. Spaying our Angel at around 8 months ended up costing more like $350 because a certain person in my house thought that a whining boy in one room was fine to be with an in-heat girl who was in the other room (they had been crated and kept apart up until that point and it was going great) if she "watched them and made sure nothing was happening" when I was asleep. I think she learned how quickly it all happens! Pretty sure he just beelined it over to her as soon as the door opened (whining stopped in my room) and it was too late within another 30 seconds (heard yelling from the other room). We spayed her rather than risk it because she was pretty small at that point and because she was SO young, and because it was NOT a good time or situation for puppies. Simply put, neither she or any of us would have been ready for puppies. The spay/neuter clinic here would have done it (under 100, plus the extra fees for a pregnant dog or a dog in heat) but she went to our regular vet (over $200 for a spay, plus the extra fees). It was a stretch to pay for that and for a dog who WASN'T in heat or pregnant I probably wouldn't hesitate to take them to the clinic just because it really can be a stretch sometimes and they're great there, plus I'd probably offer to volunteer with anything they needed help with (new website, maybe, because theirs is OLD).

Hmmm, how old would a puppy have to be before a vasectomy? Since there are concerns about early spay/neuter causing problems (which I really don't know much about), I wonder if that's a better option for puppies going to pet homes? I'm not sure how many breeders insist that puppies are spayed/neutered before going home, not many from the few I've heard about and know well, unless they're older puppies/young adults by then. Thoughts?