UKC Forums - Automatic “Strike” Dogs

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
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-- Automatic “Strike” Dogs (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928549702)

Posted by ClayBottom11 on 01-17-2023 07:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
In my opinion, AKC had the answer to the babbling rules but none of the other kennel companies wanted to copy them.

I’m not familiar, what was their answer?

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Posted by Jason Bourne on 01-17-2023 10:39 PM:

Not Player

Yea right, not a player in the hunting world, who cares what they came up with. Just like some people think this forum has magical powers, it's for entertainment purposes . I stop in from time to time , watch people try to snow plow their opinions over others.

Posted by Rester on 01-18-2023 12:45 AM:

Babbling

No child left behind what I call it!

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 01-18-2023 01:59 PM:

Re: Re: Automatic “Strike” Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by GES
"I fully understand the advantage on the scorecard, and many of these dogs I’m speaking of do a lot of winning. "

I think you answered your own question..........winning isn't about who has the best dog, Winning=Money. Winning gets you pup sales and stud fees. Winning gets you on podcast and picture on magazine covers. So,,,,the folks that want to win do whatever is necessary to win. Silent dogs, babbling dogs, mean dogs, junk runners that fall treed, slick treeing, me-to dogs, and straight line hunters are all out there being promoted by somebody that just wants to win.

You'll never put integrity and honor in the hunts by changing how you score a dog.

Winning is also hard. It takes a lot more good traits in a dog to do it consistently than it does bad, the most important of which is......treeing more raccoons than everything it is up against.

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Posted by Rester on 01-18-2023 02:21 PM:

Babbling

No child left behind is what I call it!

Posted by jake waddell on 01-18-2023 04:07 PM:

rules are there, use them, the problem that i see is not a rule issue its a comunication issue or lack there of, there was a comp hunt going around of two handlers about to come to blows cussing each other, when the rules were right there in the judges hand, use them!!! when you cut loose dogs strikes off the lead then shuts up and opens a mile away just say what you think happened nicely, an if your judging enforce it next time or ask for it to be enforced, its a compitision, an as long as we live in a fallen world there will be people that will not do whats rite, just a fact, but what gets me is the rules are on the ones that want to do rite, side, use them, an keep your emotions out of the discussion.

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Posted by Tim Green on 01-18-2023 05:13 PM:

If I’m competing in a hunt, I could care less if the leave barking or not. That strike is irrelevant if they tree coons. I just don’t want my dog penalized on a strike if it trees its own Coon. Believe it or not, there are more coons than just one in the woods and they leave different tracts.

Make the strike the same and get to treeing coons. We can hunt an hour, 2 hours, or all night. Just score them trees.

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 01-18-2023 10:19 PM:

We got 5 more years fer the next rule change....maybe UKC can update or redefine "babbling" .....🤔

Posted by AAThoundhunter on 01-19-2023 01:14 PM:

Strike dogs

I have a tight mouth dog always striking for 25. I’ve got a good strike dog usually striking for 75 or 100. That good strike dog makes my life a lot easier.

Posted by AAThoundhunter on 01-19-2023 01:14 PM:

Strike dogs

I have a tight mouth dog always striking for 25. I’ve got a good strike dog usually striking for 75 or 100. That good strike dog makes my life a lot easier.

Posted by ov_blues on 01-22-2023 03:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
I’m not familiar, what was their answer?

No dog can be struck inside the first minute unless immediately followed by a tree call. All dogs barking at the end of the minute go in for only 50 points.

This means an honest strike dog competing against some ghost barkers would only be 25 behind on potential points instead of up to 75 behind.

The biggest problem with the babbling rules is enforcing them. Once a dog gets in the timber and is struck it’s hard to prove if they are still ghost barking, running junk, running other dogs or running a coon. Even if they shut up for an extended period of time and get deep how does a judge know that the dog didn’t hole up and get on through the country and strike another track. It is a great thing to have arguments over so AKC came up with what I feel is the best solution on a problem that has existed for years.

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Posted by Team Mafia 2 on 01-23-2023 03:44 AM:

All you have to do is tree more coon than they do which is the goal anyhow. If you and your dog don’t make any mistakes and are alone with more coon than the barker you win.

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Posted by T Felderman on 01-24-2023 06:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
In my opinion, AKC had the answer to the babbling rules but none of the other kennel companies wanted to copy them.

This right here.

Posted by Jeff Nelson on 01-25-2023 05:51 AM:

Jerry Moll came up with the AKC strike rules when he worked there. They were fair and worked well.

Posted by Lance Laymon on 01-25-2023 07:09 PM:

Steve Fielder

Posted by honalieh on 02-02-2023 06:23 AM:

IEP's

With my wife being a teacher, I can put an educational perspective to this.

Education: Class of 4 students. 1 is gifted and exceptional. The other 3 are special ed (and have IEPs). The gifted student gets things done quickly and right, and get an A. The IEP (Special Ed) students are a little slower, so get extra time, open books, and teacher aides. This eventually results in them also getting the right answers. They too get A's.

Competition Hunting: Cast of 4. 1 is gifted and exceptional. The other 3 are on the slow side (Special Ed/IEP's). The gifted/exceptional dog gets treed quickly with the coon, and gets 125 tree points. The IEP (Special Ed) dogs are a little slower, so get extra time. This eventually results in them also treeing a coon. So, they too get 125 tree points.

I prefer the gifted and exceptional dog myself.

Posted by John Fults on 02-02-2023 02:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Hunting a dog that babbles should be against the rules. That is the only way to stop it. Hunting a dog that babbles is "gaining an unfair advantage". Handlers are either taking advantage of the rules or outright cheating depending on how you view it.
If you really want to stop it, scratch a dog for babbling. If they are scratched for babbling 3 times, bar them from entering a hunt for a year.
Or if you are really serious about it bar the handler if he/she enters a babbling dog in a hunt. After all the handler is attempting to cheat.

Now there is the solution. How serious are y'all?

If the judges are too weak to minus dogs for babbling, what makes you think these same weak judges are going to scratch these dogs?? The problem is simply, the judges!! If I’m judging, and a dog is struck on a babble, I’ll minus the dog in a heartbeat! If the handler don’t agree, he can question it, and ask for a vote!

Posted by ov_blues on 02-02-2023 08:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Fults
If the judges are too weak to minus dogs for babbling, what makes you think these same weak judges are going to scratch these dogs?? The problem is simply, the judges!! If I’m judging, and a dog is struck on a babble, I’ll minus the dog in a heartbeat! If the handler don’t agree, he can question it, and ask for a vote!

The problem is right there, figuring out whether a dog is babbling based on limited exposure to said dog. I've hunted 50 years and I have a female right now that I can't figure out when she is tracking and when she is loose mouthing. IF she gets her coon treeing down she will be a handful in a competition hunt but right now with all that running of the mouth she sure isn't that fun to pleasure hunt. I have another female that I know isn't babbling but a person sure wouldn't think that she wasn't on some nights when coon have been on the ground and she strikes tracks right at your feet that other dogs can't even smell.

AKC has the right rule, or at least close to the right rule, to at least take a lot of the guess work out of it. I think it should be dogs barking in the last 10 or 15 seconds as a dog could easily shut up for 5 seconds on a track.

A. Strike Points
1. One set of strike points as follows: 100 points
for dog declared struck first; 75 points second;
50 points third and 25 points fourth. All dogs
must be loose and competing in order for first
strike of 100 points to be awarded. If dog(s) are
re-struck after being scored plus, minus, circle
or deleted they may only be struck back in for
25 points unless all dogs are competing for 100
strike points.

2. One (1) minute time to be kept each time dog(s)
are released. No dog to receive strike points
during that minute unless immediately followed
by a tree call. Fifty (50) strike points will be
recorded for dog(s) barking within the last five
seconds of the minute. Remaining dogs, when
struck receive 25 points. This rule will only be
in effect when all dogs are loose and competing
for 100 strike points. The judge will count aloud
the last five seconds of the minute and announce,
“minute is up,” and will indicate which dogs are
struck and recorded for 50 strike points if any.

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 02-02-2023 10:04 PM:

I guess my concern isn’t the one that opens under the minute a few times and gets struck but doesn’t carry a track out, that one u can usually get a minus vote. The ones that are hard to judge and get minused are the ones that leave barking and really never shut up. How can anyone minus a dog that leaves barking and is still barking minutes later at 500 yards and the other honest mouth dogs haven’t opened? Maybe a second dog opens a time or two at 90 seconds out 200 or so and gets struck , now I’m working with 50 or even 25 for a “honest first strike”. Treeing the extra coon isn’t a problem sometimes, but often times it’s just not a reality.

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Posted by John Fults on 02-02-2023 11:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
I guess my concern isn’t the one that opens under the minute a few times and gets struck but doesn’t carry a track out, that one u can usually get a minus vote. The ones that are hard to judge and get minused are the ones that leave barking and really never shut up. How can anyone minus a dog that leaves barking and is still barking minutes later at 500 yards and the other honest mouth dogs haven’t opened? Maybe a second dog opens a time or two at 90 seconds out 200 or so and gets struck , now I’m working with 50 or even 25 for a “honest first strike”. Treeing the extra coon isn’t a problem sometimes, but often times it’s just not a reality.

Sonny, there use to be a guy here close to the house that hunted an English female that barked in the truck, on the lead and every breath the second you cut her loose. It was obvious to me she was babbling nearly every time you’d cut her. The way to handle a dog like that, is to go ahead and minus her!! If the handler wants to question it, and call it to a cast vote, let him. Odds are, once you’ve opened the gate, the rest of the cast will slam it shut with a minus vote. People usually won’t say much until after somebody else does!! Me personally, I’ll minus one in a heartbeat, I’m there to compete, not make friends.

Posted by Sonny Phipps on 02-03-2023 12:24 AM:

I follow what you’re saying and 10-15 years ago it seemed to work the way u described. I’ve not had luck getting support on a vote for it now days. I’m not sure why and maybe it was just the group I was in on the 2 times I pushed for it. Maybe next time it’ll work. It most generally isn’t an issue in the local hunts I have attended tho , for the most part the dogs aren’t bad babblers around the area I live and hunt.

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