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-- Is it possible for a coon hound to be to cold nosed? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928540670)

Re: Re: Is it possible for a coon hound to be to cold nosed?

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Originally posted by shadinc
I guess it's possible for one to be too cold-nosed if he's trailing coons that walked last night. Say you turn dog A out and he strikes and stays in the same place for 10 minutes. Then you send dog B to him and they trail out and tree the coon. Would you say dog A is too cold nosed or he's not a good enough track dog? Dog B has the same nose and moved the track. I'd say very seldom can a dog be too cold-nosed if he can move every track he strikes.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

my friend has the best coon dog I ever hunted with. Calls him Case. I have never seen that dog do what we call cold trail. If you hunted with him one night you would say, he only struck hot tracks tonight. Tracks other dogs boo hoo on, he moves out fast. We've gotten a few good track dogs out of him, but none like him. In my 60 years of coon hunting I have never seen another dog that could do that. Here's the good part. He's an Utchman bred blue tick.

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Donald Bergeron

Donald

That's exactly what I am talking about, A dog that makes cold tracks look like hot tracks. A dog that runs tracks other good dogs can not smell. They are few and far between, but they do exist even if most folks have never seen one like that. Cold nosed and competition coon dog has become an oxymoron. Lol. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

I think there is a connection between the nose and the brain…I see this in many hog dogs on account many are cow dogs converted to hog dogs…

I have seen dogs that will wind hogs from a good distance and many that won’t smell those hogs until we get close and then those dogs light bulb will click on…the nose and the brain finally connected…the switch finally tripped…

Many times I have come behind a pack of dogs and hunters on horseback and as soon as I came up behind them my dogs opened on some hot tracks and went right through dogs and horses…why is it the 7 or eight dogs could not smell the hot tracks…the switch on those dogs never tripped…

I talk about the great dogs quite often…they make it look easy…these dogs make it look easy because they know where to look and they find tracks quickly because they have a hair trigger…they smell a scent in the wind and go straight to the track…these dogs have the knack to read the wind currents…they will run the track with their head up and move the track quickly because they run it with heads up…if the wind is blowing gently they won’t run on top of the track…they run it off of the wind currents and slightly downwind…

There is not one gene for the nose and one for the brain…there are many genes that compliment each other…

Two dogs can strike a feeder track and one dog can take a while to line it out and the other dog makes a quick loop and finds the hot end of the tracks and rolls out quickly and will have the meat before the other dog lines out the track…

The good ones have the genetics that drives them to do what they do well…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Rueben

Exactly, it's definitely genetics first and training second, all the training in the World can not replace genetic ability. People certainly have different genetics relating to everything from brains to looks, dogs are no different. Some dogs just have that genetic superiority in brains, nose or some other desired trait. Those of us that watch sports get to see a lot of really good athletes, but few that are just head and shoulders above the rest. They all train hard, but few get to the level of a super star that just have better genetics suitable for that particular sport. Coon dogs are no exception, you see a lot of decent dogs, some outstanding dogs, but very few that stand out above all of the rest. Some say it's the training, I say it's the DNA ( with training ) that makes the difference. The combination of all the right DNA that just happens every so often the best we can do. A dog with the right DNA can make a average Hunter look like a World Class Trainer, the same goes with Horses. The key is recognizing that something special and giving them the opportunities to excel. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Re: Re: Is it possible for a coon hound to be to cold nosed?

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
I think it's more possible for a dog to be a poor slow track dog that their owner thinks is super cold nosed. How many have seen a dog boo hooing around for an hour and then something else turned loose that hits the very same track passes him by and trees the coon in no time. Ol what's his face wasn't cold nosed he just lacked tracking ability.
This question reminds me of Cheyenne's coffee, biscuits and a campfire stories from his childhood. The redbones never missed a coon but when you have time for all of that were they really that cold nosed or just slow track dogs that made it appear that way? To many associate track speed with nose. When in reality they have little to do with each other. A good track dog does not need his nose sniffing around on the ground moving at 2-3 mph just because the track is older and colder.
The time involved it takes to tree a coon does not always indicate the type of nose a dog has. It really doesn't matter so much as to whether a dog is cold, medium or hot nosed and ambushes them. What matters is that they do whatever their ability with speed and accuracy. Being the best at what they do. I think what everyone's wish is to find the one that regardless of conditions and surroundings to turn one loose that is looking for a coon and does what it does efficiently and better than the others their buddies may be packing lol!

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Dan

Re: .

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Mr. Moore, I have heard kind of like you have. I heard all dogs smell the same. It is just the excitability level they have thats gets them to barking. I know these drug sniffing and search and rescue dogs are trained for certain scents. Durning training they are excited with generally a ball. We as hound hunters let ours excited themselves with the scent of a coon. Many a pack dog from days past excited one another. I have one dog here that will not babble. But hold him back a second two when the others are cast. You can get a bark or two out of him. Kind of why there is a rule to allow dogs some time before you have to strike them. All this equates to our dogs deep in the woods finding and working tracks. Some genetics just allow for more excitability from the scent. Most of that is getting bred away. The excitability is coming out in hard hunting till they find a track or babbling till they dog. Dog are just using what excites them in a different way. Some barking, some going hard and fast. Know what they will find.

Many years ago on the board it was discussed why they tree. Some had the notion that the tree stopped their forward progress, just like some fences do and dog pens do today. The frustration and excitability that they couldn't progress. Caused them to tree. I would give my opinion on that notion. But have seen it plenty and many of you see it today in your dog pens. Almost can hear your dogs barking now. LOL

Anyway. These dogs do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons. Look in the mirror and you are the key to harnessing anything and everything your dog throws at you. The results are based upon your desire. Lots of poor results can equal poor judgment handling issues. Issues don't handle themselves. You do.

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Re: Re: Re: Is it possible for a coon hound to be to cold nosed?

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Originally posted by DL NH
Bingo!! You nailed it!! The coon dog I want to follow takes it’s tracks as they come, hot or cold with the intent to overtake it or put it in a tree. Many people mistake a poor track dog for a cold nosed track dog because it struggles to line out the track and pressure the game to tree, hole or be caught. Really good track dogs are scarce as hens teeth. And this doesn’t apply only to coon hounds!

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Couple years ago I took a friend coon hunting with me. He was worried his two big game hounds were too cold nosed for coon hunting. My dog was pecking and grubbing a track across a frozen swamp. His dogs wouldn't open on it. I said, "Guess this track ain't cold enough for your big game hounds.". Eventually treed it.

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Seeking Soli Deo Gloria through the hounds.

Dogs

Most of those so called big game dogs came from coonhound blood anyway a mountain lion or bear gives much more scent than a raccoon or bobcat does I've seen the same thing as houndsound with these world beater big game stuff

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Originally posted by houndsound
Couple years ago I took a friend coon hunting with me. He was worried his two big game hounds were too cold nosed for coon hunting. My dog was pecking and grubbing a track across a frozen swamp. His dogs wouldn't open on it. I said, "Guess this track ain't cold enough for your big game hounds.". Eventually treed it.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

I live in Wyoming Dave. I'm pretty aware of what big game dogs are.

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Seeking Soli Deo Gloria through the hounds.

Re: Dogs

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Originally posted by wart
Most of those so called big game dogs came from coonhound blood anyway a mountain lion or bear gives much more scent than a raccoon or bobcat does I've seen the same thing as houndsound with these world beater big game stuff

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Originally posted by houndsound
Couple years ago I took a friend coon hunting with me. He was worried his two big game hounds were too cold nosed for coon hunting. My dog was pecking and grubbing a track across a frozen swamp. His dogs wouldn't open on it. I said, "Guess this track ain't cold enough for your big game hounds.". Eventually treed it.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Perhaps the best cold nosed coon hound I ever had the pleasure of hunting with was a hound named NT CH Robinsons Blue Drum. He was a son of Vaughn’s Mack II and Fly’s Bugle Ann. I had the pleasure of hunting many a night behind this Bluetick. He had voice like most today, I suspect have never heard. He had a very long drawn out bawl on a cold track and had the ability to tree a very high percentage of the tracks he started. There were times when he opened on tracks he couldn’t finish. Those were the exception, not the rule. Dogs with a really cold nose are likely going to have an occasional track they can’t finish. I don’t care what the breed is.

He wasn’t for everybody but he was a pleasure hunters treasure. Not sure you could find a coon dog like him today and truthfully I’m not sure how many people would want one in this day and age. I’ve always enjoyed listening to a dog start with a struggling track and work it up to a flat out race that ends with a definitive changeover leading up to a steady rhythmic chop calling his or her master to come get ‘um! Drum was not a flashy dog per say but he was a dog that made treeing coon look effortless many a night with a voice I’ll never forget.

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Dan

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Originally posted by DL NH
Perhaps the best cold nosed coon hound I ever had the pleasure of hunting with was a hound named NT CH Robinsons Blue Drum. He was a son of Vaughn’s Mack II and Fly’s Bugle Ann. I had the pleasure of hunting many a night behind this Bluetick. He had voice like most today, I suspect have never heard. He had a very long drawn out bawl on a cold track and had the ability to tree a very high percentage of the tracks he started. There were times when he opened on tracks he couldn’t finish. Those were the exception, not the rule. Dogs with a really cold nose are likely going to have an occasional track they can’t finish. I don’t care what the breed is.

He wasn’t for everybody but he was a pleasure hunters treasure. Not sure you could find a coon dog like him today and truthfully I’m not sure how many people would want one in this day and age. I’ve always enjoyed listening to a dog start with a struggling track and work it up to a flat out race that ends with a definitive changeover leading up to a steady rhythmic chop calling his or her master to come get ‘um! Drum was not a flashy dog per say but he was a dog that made treeing coon look effortless many a night with a voice I’ll never forget.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

HA HA HA

I will follow a hound like old Drum who takes a few tracks he can’t finish over those that also can’t finish one but just grabs an empty tree.

Difference is the owner of a hound like Drum knows there’s no coon at the end of his track, Mr Empty tree owner thinks there was one.

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OLD TIMER

Too cold, No. Too slow, absolutely. Whether the owner/handler wants to admit it out loud or not I think most people know the difference in a slow dog, and a cold dog. At least I hope they do as it seems like they are confused more often than not.

I start my hounds on coon, but am primarily a bear hunter. I can count on several fingers the times I have started young dogs that had zero interest in a coon, that loved a bear, or vice versa. I believe that just because a cross is made of two coon dogs, that isn’t a guarantee that the litter will all prefer a coon. Same goes for hounds bred for cat, lion, bear, coyote, or whatever. Just like humans, dogs don’t always prefer the same route their parents took.

Back to my two cents on scent… I had a young female that started on bear at 5 1/2 months and never looked back. She RAN tracks that other dogs had trouble with. She really shined on a feed track in an acorn flat. Other dogs were going step for step where the bear went, she made her signature loop around and left screaming on the hot end. She was the dog I had heard about, and read about, but would have never believed if I hadn’t seen it.

I recall a track she took out like I just described when she was 8 months old, and she had the bear treed 1.2 miles out…. when the other 2 dogs (which aren’t slouches) hadn’t even realized the bear was jumped yet. Last December I was free casting my 3 coldest dogs in the fresh snow, Ruby struck, started trailing, and left on a run. Over the mountain she went screaming. The other dogs had went to her and came back, being a young dog I suspected a trash race. I cut her track twice, and there was NOTHING but her track. The snow was about 1/4” and was from the night before (about 6 hours old at the time). I cut her track 3 more times on my way to her (now 7 miles from where she struck) and 3 miles in there was a bear track to go with rubys track. At this point the other dogs went on, but until the track was on top of the snow they had no clue the bear had ever been there. I had never seen a dog RUN a track under the snow… trail it yes, but not run.

I don’t believe that all dogs have the same nose, one of the other dogs I mentioned that couldn’t smell it under the snow enjoys nothing more in this world than to chew on a bear. Since Ruby died this summer the dog I mention is my top dog. If there’s a bear and she can smell it she will stop at nothing to catch it. If it was true and all dogs have the same nose then she would take every single bear track we ever crossed. Some people may not agree with this statement but you would have to hunt with her to appreciate her all out desire to catch.

I also enjoy the debate of which animals leave the most scent. We can assume that a larger animal leaves more scent, but how do we know? I sure can’t smell it. It’s my job to listen to these hounds, as they tell me all about what they’re smelling, that I can’t even see. I’ll take it a step further to stir the pot a little. I had a hardcore coonhunter come by to look at my stock and talk blood for awhile and we got on this very topic. He said it’s harder to make a coondog because they leave less scent…. I said maybe they do. But my bear dogs will tree coon in the off season, how many of your coon dogs will tree bear?

I feel that this discussion always comes up because people are mistaking a slow dog, for a cold nosed dog. Just because a dog has a cold nose doesn’t mean it can’t run a hot track. A true cold nosed dog can run a medium to hot track just like any other dog, they just have another weapon in their arsenal that most dogs don’t, which is the ability to take that cold track when it comes and put a tree on the end of it. A dog should take tracks as they come, and run to catch. I’m also afraid that these dogs are few and far between, and a lot of people may never see it. That’s just my two scents worth though, and last time I checked, a lot of places aren’t even using pennies anymore.

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Cedar Ridge Kennels

5th

I agree and have seen it myself, been coon hunting and coyote hunting. Had a young Redbone I had gotten from Paul Swetnam that at 10 months would take coon tracks others didn’t know was there and run it like he was looking at it.
Also have coyote hounds take a track that I couldn’t see in a blown out field of snow and never miss a beat.
But the thing these hounds had besides a good nose was brains on how to use it.
Good post you wrote.

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OLD TIMER

Re: 5th

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Originally posted by OLD TIMER
I agree and have seen it myself, been coon hunting and coyote hunting. Had a young Redbone I had gotten from Paul Swetnam that at 10 months would take coon tracks others didn’t know was there and run it like he was looking at it.
Also have coyote hounds take a track that I couldn’t see in a blown out field of snow and never miss a beat.
But the thing these hounds had besides a good nose was brains on how to use it.
Good post you wrote.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Originally posted by 5thgearwide


Back to my two cents on scent… I had a young female that started on bear at 5 1/2 months and never looked back. She RAN tracks that other dogs had trouble with. She really shined on a feed track in an acorn flat. Other dogs were going step for step where the bear went, she made her signature loop around and left screaming on the hot end. She was the dog I had heard about, and read about, but would have never believed if I hadn’t seen it.

I recall a track she took out like I just described when she was 8 months old, and she had the bear treed 1.2 miles out…. when the other 2 dogs (which aren’t slouches) hadn’t even realized the bear was jumped yet. Last December I was free casting my 3 coldest dogs in the fresh snow, Ruby struck, started trailing, and left on a run. Over the mountain she went screaming. The other dogs had went to her and came back, being a young dog I suspected a trash race. I cut her track twice, and there was NOTHING but her track. The snow was about 1/4” and was from the night before (about 6 hours old at the time). I cut her track 3 more times on my way to her (now 7 miles from where she struck) and 3 miles in there was a bear track to go with rubys track. At this point the other dogs went on, but until the track was on top of the snow they had no clue the bear had ever been there. I had never seen a dog RUN a track under the snow… trail it yes, but not run.

I don’t believe that all dogs have the same nose, one of the other dogs I mentioned that couldn’t smell it under the snow enjoys nothing more in this world than to chew on a bear. Since Ruby died this summer the dog I mention is my top dog. If there’s a bear and she can smell it she will stop at nothing to catch it. If it was true and all dogs have the same nose then she would take every single bear track we ever crossed. Some people may not agree with this statement but you would have to hunt with her to appreciate her all out desire to catch.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Outstanding Track Dogs

I'ved looked for this type for 50 years and one observation is that when pups run their first few tracks they are more interested in catching the game than sounding like a mature hound. If the pup has a beautiful loud long drawn out bawl on there first few tracks, then from my past experiences I consider that pup a CULL. After emptying its lungs of all the air to make noise, it no longer has oxygen to run fast. Ive seen alot of breeders pick this type of voice as their #1 trait when selecting mates for a future winners and then complain because the pups are slow on track. I prefer a pup that has alittle of everything for mouth on their first few tracks because they are trying to catch the game. Just my opinion! Ken Risley

The two fastest track dogs I ever saw were both squall mouth track dogs. Grandpa and grandson and both could take a track other dogs couldn't smell and line out on it. Another thing they had in common were they were the hardest dogs to take a coon away from as they loved to fight a coon. Even had to cauterize the old dogs ears.

Re: Outstanding Track Dogs

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
I'ved looked for this type for 50 years and one observation is that when pups run their first few tracks they are more interested in catching the game than sounding like a mature hound. If the pup has a beautiful loud long drawn out bawl on there first few tracks, then from my past experiences I consider that pup a CULL. After emptying its lungs of all the air to make noise, it no longer has oxygen to run fast. Ive seen alot of breeders pick this type of voice as their #1 trait when selecting mates for a future winners and then complain because the pups are slow on track. I prefer a pup that has alittle of everything for mouth on their first few tracks because they are trying to catch the game. Just my opinion! Ken Risley

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

My best dog as a pup would trail drags in my back yard and led his siblings by a good ways…they ran silent…
Between 3 or 4 months and first or second time in the woods he opened and running alone…a loud ball mouth on that pup…ran it about 300 yards and lost it in slough…in about a month he opened on track but never ball mouth again…not even on locate…I love a loud ball on locate and change over to a loud chop…

That pup took a track at about 5 months or less that his uncle didn’t even slow down on it…he took the track backwards and eventually lost it…I’ll never forget my hunting buddy asked me why I was so excited…I said because Yeller took a track that Smoke couldn’t smell…And he said but he took the track backwards…I said…look at his age…look at what he’s doing at this age…and Smoke is a top dog…
Smoke was going to have the meat no doubt…he would take a little bit to line out a feeder track…and he had the bottom to bring a runner to bay…at 9 or 10 months there was no doubt…it was a fierce competition between the two…but Yeller was special…he made it look easy…he knew how to find the hot end of the tracks…he had the knack to know where to look…and when he got older when to look…

the difference…brain power and a colder nose…

Yellers first time in the woods at about 3.5 months old and pitch black night…my brother and I cast the dogs and I turned Yeller loose…we went walking towards the same direction as the dogs went…I shined my light looking for Yeller and my heart sank because I didn’t see him…I told my brother to wait up I was going back to the truck and get Yeller…about that time we heard some splashing in the slough and I shined my light and it was Yeller coming by with his head up looking ahead and side to side…that was an adrenaline rush for me…after a while it was normal to see Yeller perform at a high level but the excitement never got old…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...