UKC Forums - Face Barking in a hunt

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-- Face Barking in a hunt (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928536229)

Posted by pamjohnson on 01-23-2021 02:25 AM:

How so dave

Posted by Jack Bingham on 01-23-2021 02:37 AM:

Just let them figure it out before i get there. I don't classify face barking as aggressive behavior. There just letting you know to get outta there space. But some people will try and scratch you for anything.

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Posted by gdjr on 01-23-2021 02:46 AM:

Not going to come across many elite level/ world class dogs that don't face bark some when treed with another dog. Tree dogs are going to face bark a little. Most of the good ones are independent and don't have a lot of issues. But when an issue arises,it's usually a case of a dog that can't take any pressure. There's a huge difference between an aggressive tree dog and one that does a little face barking. A decent houndsman can decifer the two pretty easily.

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Posted by gdjr on 01-23-2021 02:46 AM:

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Posted by benderb4 on 01-23-2021 02:46 AM:

Re: Re: Interpretation

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Wrong.
Our opinions are not important the rule is specific aggression and interference. One or the other is not enough. Facebarking alone MUST cause a dog to be interfered with before you may scratch.
And no one has advocated for a facebarking dog we have just stated as to what the rule is.

this is the correct rule interpretation

Page 11 of the black edition rules book

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Posted by Dave Richards on 01-23-2021 02:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
How so dave

I think you already know the answer, you seem pretty smart on most posts! I will enlighten you though, our personal likes, dislikes and opinions DO NOT take place of the ACTUAL RULES or how UKC actually says they are. Now, we do not have to agree or even like the RULE, but we are bound by UKC'S stand on their RULES, NOT the way we see it. Dave

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Posted by benderb4 on 01-23-2021 02:51 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Just let them figure it out before i get there. I don't classify face barking as aggressive behavior. There just letting you know to get outta there space. But some people will try and scratch you for anything.

exactly. If this happened while pleasure hunting my dog will get an attitude adjustment because "I don't care for it" But on nite hunts unless they are not allowing the other dog to hunt or chasing off the tree they get a pass.

Posted by Dan&Ann on 01-23-2021 02:57 AM:

You will never hear this...

Judge mine will meet you off the tree and oh yeah he face barks really bad but he will not interfere with other dogs. I broke him from the interference problem. Hahaha..... Tell me how a dog can face bark without interfering with another hound trying to tree...the face barking is the aggression and the hound receiving it is being interfered with. Equation complete. In the box or on the leash no interference. At the tree you have both Aggression and interference!

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Posted by ov_blues on 01-23-2021 04:50 AM:

Re: You will never hear this...

quote:
Originally posted by Dan&Ann
Judge mine will meet you off the tree and oh yeah he face barks really bad but he will not interfere with other dogs. I broke him from the interference problem. Hahaha..... Tell me how a dog can face bark without interfering with another hound trying to tree...the face barking is the aggression and the hound receiving it is being interfered with. Equation complete. In the box or on the leash no interference. At the tree you have both Aggression and interference!

It’s not interfering if the other dog/s stays treed. They can move around, back up or whatever and stay treed. You could even have dogs face barking the crap out of each other and there is no interference. Now, if you see a dog being ran off by a face barker then you have aggressive behavior and interference and the dog can be scratched. Interference is the reaction to the aggressive behavior from the other dogs which could result in scratching the dog displaying aggression.

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Posted by Reuben on 01-23-2021 05:40 AM:

The question we need to ask ourselves is...what type of dog is a face barker?

Some will say it is a dog that wants its space...

I see it as a jealous dog hoarding the tree and wants the coon for itself...it is also aggressive behavior...IMO the dog should be focused on treeing a coon and not on face barking...

Work hard at training the dog to not be a face barker is ok...and one day you decide to breed that dog and wonder why you have more face barking in the next generation...

When trying to breed on the ragged edge of perfection...chances are you will fall on each side of that line with the pups...
Who wants to breed that close to the negative?

Rules should take this into consideration and look at the big picture....modify rules that promote the better dogs...

I will not hunt a face barker...they can ruin a pup as well...

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Posted by DocAcumen on 01-23-2021 10:41 AM:

Posted by Dan&Ann on 01-23-2021 02:17 PM:

Interference

Mr. Smith the dog that leaves due to the face barking is only reacting to the interference. The rule does not require a dog to leave the tree. There can be many different reactions. That's why the rule states to scratch the aggressor if known. The rule does not require any certain reaction...The rule is clear but I see there is split opinions. I think we should lean to the side of caution always when talking about any kind of consistent aggression by a hound.

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Posted by benderb4 on 01-23-2021 02:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dan&Ann
Mr. Smith the dog that leaves due to the face barking is only reacting to the interference. The rule does not require a dog to leave the tree. There can be many different reactions. That's why the rule states to scratch the aggressor if known. The rule does not require any certain reaction...The rule is clear but I see there is split opinions. I think we should lean to the side of caution always when talking about any kind of consistent aggression by a hound.

UKC HAS INTERPRETED THE RULE AS MANY AS WELL AS I HAVE REPEATEDLY TOLD YOU !!!
Any body with common sense and has hunted in enough hunts understands the rule.
Must be one of the trouble makers on hunts. That can't accept the rules as UKC defines them.Puts every thing under a microscope to get the desired result. of scratching or getting rid of your competition
SO stop arguing the point to suit yourself.

Posted by Preacher Tom on 01-23-2021 03:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
The question we need to ask ourselves is...what type of dog is a face barker?

Some will say it is a dog that wants its space...

I see it as a jealous dog hoarding the tree and wants the coon for itself...it is also aggressive behavior...IMO the dog should be focused on treeing a coon and not on face barking...

Work hard at training the dog to not be a face barker is ok...and one day you decide to breed that dog and wonder why you have more face barking in the next generation...

When trying to breed on the ragged edge of perfection...chances are you will fall on each side of that line with the pups...
Who wants to breed that close to the negative?

Rules should take this into consideration and look at the big picture....modify rules that promote the better dogs...

I will not hunt a face barker...they can ruin a pup as well...

Couldn't agree more. I won't hunt a face barker nor will I hunt with one. I only pleasure hunt so I can choose what dogs I will hunt with. Have culled several coon treeing dogs for this behavior.

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Posted by houndsound on 01-23-2021 04:39 PM:

I'm not a competition hunter.... but boy I'd be pretty disappointed if I went to the trouble of going to a hunt and a dog was in my cast that was face-barking my dog at the tree. Sounds like the general consensus is that it is not considered aggressive behavior until it results in something else... which seems odd to me.

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Posted by Clif Owen on 01-23-2021 06:02 PM:

Back in the early 90's I had a dog that was pretty radical at the tree. He jacked the tree pretty bad sometimes. I had no idea how to break this. Anyway, I took him to a RQE to try to win my cast and possibly get a 1st. We cut the dogs and they went just about 75 yards and all 4 blew up on a tree. Well, a few seconds later; you could tell there was friction. Honestly, at this point; I wasn't worried. My dog's voice hadn't changed. He WASN'T involved. But when we got to the tree, he was face barking. The judge scratched him for attempting to fight. I never questioned the decision. However, when the judge started telling me how to return to the clubhouse; I refused to leave. I was going to watch to see how this circus turned out. I wasn't sure the right dog was scratched and I knew that not enough dogs were scratched but mine looked guilty. Long story short; about an hour or so into the hunt; 2 of the remaining 3 got into a battle. They weren't blowing...they were for real fighting. But, they quit before we got close enough to see what happened. There was no doubt which 2 were involved. But nothing was ever done. I probably owe one of those guys an apology. For about a year, I thought his dog was the bad one. Turns out, there was a female on the cast and she was bad to the bone. It was evidently her that started both scuffles. I think she grabbed mine on the first tree and blew his mind.
Should my dog have been scratched?? At the time, I thought so but I'm not sure now. I didn't like his actions but wonder now if he was only trying to protect himself after being attacked.

Posted by shadinc on 01-23-2021 08:33 PM:

How can any dog owner not think that face barking is aggressive?

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 01-23-2021 09:30 PM:

Have y'all never watched any "sporting event", football, basketball, soccer, drag race or whatever? Is "trash talking" being aggresive? How about just arguing period. At what point does it become a "foul"? Every sport has "face barkers" and the same rules to deal with them. Only when it becomes a fight or is deemed interference is a flag thrown.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 01-23-2021 09:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
How can any dog owner not think that face barking is aggressive?

The answer many won't like or agree with.... dogs in the heat of the moment are allowed to show agression they are not allowed to fight or show aggression that interferes with another dogs ability to compete. Dogs that growl are also not scratched unless interference has occurred. To keep it simple unless a seen fight occurs or a dogs ability to tree or compete is interfered with the dog is not to be scratched.
You all seem to want to shoot the messengers on of a long standing rule. You can't just make your own rules and interpretation as they suit. The rule is clear whether or not agreed with by all. Not following it can open a whole different can of worms.
Just because a dog looks at another dog while it trees could become a scratchable offense. Some dogs become much more excited at the tree but have no I'll intent others maybe territorial and the facebarking is that. Sometimes multiple dogs end up treed on a small sapling aggression is not the only expression in a dog that may facebark for some it is simply excitability. Yes, it is best to break a dog from facebarking as it can lead to issues with dogs in a cast who have a low tolerance for dogs in "their space".

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 01-23-2021 09:36 PM:

What about face barking handlers? Nobody wants to hunt with them but we have to. They can only be scratched when there is an actual fight or a physical threat. You can't scratch a handler for face barking although it is aggresive behavior. Aggressive handlers try to intimidate other handlers. Aggressive dogs are no different. It isn't right but we have to put up with them or quit/leave.

Posted by novicane65 on 01-23-2021 09:38 PM:

Re: You will never hear this...

quote:
Originally posted by Dan&Ann
Judge mine will meet you off the tree and oh yeah he face barks really bad but he will not interfere with other dogs. I broke him from the interference problem. Hahaha..... Tell me how a dog can face bark without interfering with another hound trying to tree...the face barking is the aggression and the hound receiving it is being interfered with. Equation complete. In the box or on the leash no interference. At the tree you have both Aggression and interference!

Then by your interpretation of this rule your tree jacking dog will be scratched also since he "could" jump and land on my sweet innocent angel that face barks and not afraid to roll if another pouch decides to try n shove her around. Lol Just because you want the rules to say it this was doesn't make it so. Read the rules for what they say not what you want them to say.

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 01-23-2021 09:50 PM:

Seems like we have a bunch of dogs that voted democrat. Maybe instead of going to hunt they should go to there safe place. If your worried of ole precious getting butt hurt teach them to go get there own tree. Same old story someone always looking for away to eliminate the competition.

Posted by novicane65 on 01-23-2021 10:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Seems like we have a bunch of dogs that voted democrat. Maybe instead of going to hunt they should go to there safe place. If your worried of ole precious getting butt hurt teach them to go get there own tree. Same old story someone always looking for away to eliminate the competition.

Exactly my point. I'm definitely not a demo-RAT. Trust me when I say if mine deserves to be scratched ill take it. If mine slicks I'll take my minus. He'll I voted to minus my dog and got out voted on a den.

Posted by shadinc on 01-23-2021 10:27 PM:

None of that changes the fact that face barking is aggression.

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 01-23-2021 10:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
None of that changes the fact that face barking is aggression.

That's some peoples opinion. Me and many others disagree.

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