UKC Forums - Puppy Imprinting or is it Epigenetics?

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-- Puppy Imprinting or is it Epigenetics? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928534458)

Posted by Dogwhisper on 11-21-2020 04:39 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Our dogs are no different than our dinner tables. We have got to the point that the genetics are there in most hounds. With with proper handling, care, and experiences. They will make some type of coonhound.

The same goes for that apple pie or pumpkin pie we will be eating next week. The same ingredients in that pie will be served all across the nation. The same ingredients that Mom used. Most of the pies WILL NOT turn out like Moms. Will not taste as good, will not be as sweet and will just not be the same. An apple is an apple, flour is flour, sugar is sugar. Then why the difference. Mom knew what she was doing. Dogmen know what they are doing.

Lol.....

Not all apples r created equal ...let alone for bakeing.
But yea their all apples....
Even our MOMs couldn't make a great 🍎 pie w/inferior apples.
As gifted a baker she mite be .....quality ingredients is where it starts not just any apples will do.
Their in lies a secret......very few can see it .
I'm on my way to get apples now.....and u best believe that I better bring the right kind back home .Not just any 🍎 will do.
Yes MOM/dogmen know what their doing ,but it all starts with the rite kind of apples.😁

Posted by Reuben on 11-21-2020 07:11 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Our dogs are no different than our dinner tables. We have got to the point that the genetics are there in most hounds. With with proper handling, care, and experiences. They will make some type of coonhound.

The same goes for that apple pie or pumpkin pie we will be eating next week. The same ingredients in that pie will be served all across the nation. The same ingredients that Mom used. Most of the pies WILL NOT turn out like Moms. Will not taste as good, will not be as sweet and will just not be the same. An apple is an apple, flour is flour, sugar is sugar. Then why the difference. Mom knew what she was doing. Dogmen know what they are doing.

Not meaning this as disrespectful...just speaking my beliefs...

The apples and pies you speak of from across the nation is speaking in general...the overall average...for me this means the averages to reach 100 percent of the apples and pies will be close to this in the end...

20 percent above average...
60 percent average...
20 percent below average...

Your explanation is the same as what we’re dealing with today from what many see happening with the hunting dogs...they tend to fall in the same averages...why is this happening? Probably because we fall in the same law of averages as the apples, pies and dogs...

An average dog might get hung up on a feeder track for 5 or 10 minutes before he figures it out...a good hound will loop out quickly and in 2 minutes will have the hot end of the tracks lined out and will be bayed or treed by time the other hound lines the track out...
Can all dog men know what kind of dog he has or even appreciate the difference?

Another hound has trouble working tracks but puts lots of effort working the track with his nose close to the ground and he eventually gets the job done. This is his style most of the time...

the good hound hits the track running with his head up and looking ahead for the game he is tracking...he makes most of the tracks he runs look easy...

Of course there are other traits we need to evaluate to complete the well rounded hunting hound...

Depending in what category we fall in is probably what type of dog we will be happy to hunt...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by River Birch Run on 11-22-2020 01:34 PM:

The avg. tanks when you throw people in the mix. The odds of a man jacking up what would have been a nice hound are much better than the odds he won't.

__________________
Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

Posted by Reuben on 11-23-2020 01:31 PM:

Make it negative ore make it positive?

Call it training, imprinting or epigenetics...positives or negatives

Examples below...and speaking from the school of hard knocks...😁

A negative outcome...
Feed the pups in their 10ft x 10ft kennel first thing in the morning and then turn them out to play while you clean the pen...when it’s time to put the pups up they won’t come...call and beg them to come and they still won’t come...
Why aren’t they coming and what have they learned?
Well it’s a lot more fun in the back yard...So you attempted to call them in and that didn’t work and so you had to chase them down...after a while they learn they can outrun you...and they they start fearing you...boy, they have learned quite a bit...all because they were fed first...

A positive outcome...
Turn the pups out to play in the yard before feeding while cleaning the pen...

It is time to put the pups up...make up the feed...call pups like your calling them out of the woods...as they come running to your calls snap your fingers as they come by giving the command to kennel...you pet them up good as they eat and as you watch for aggression correct it as needed...

So feeding last got you many positive results afterwards...we can make itcomplicated or effortless...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-23-2020 02:19 PM:

This post shows what I love about this board. Been on here since 2003 when it first started. I was a young man in my 50's back then LOL. Lots of great people with a vast amount of knowledge and ideas. But we all post with slightly different thoughts. We all breed and train dogs with those slightly different thoughts. That is what makes the coonhound world wonderful, exciting and surly not boring.

I will leave this post with something Dogwhisper wrote. "not all apples are created equal, let alone for baking".

Mom can have here apples chosen, sliced and diced and tucked away in a pie crust in an hour or two. The correct apples, into the correct pie dough. Many times she has chosen her apples only to find out, once sliced they may not be the apples she wants in her pie and she dumps them and gets some more. Unlkie the houndsman with that cute puppy. Mom doesn't fall in love with the apples, she doesn't say they may not be what I really want but they will do. She does not say that once cooked they will be alright. Just like the person that knows dogs. Mom culls here apples even after she has put the energy into peeling, slicing and dicing. Why because the results are what she is looking for and knows how to get them. Hound owners know the results they want, but think they just need a little more time with the dog to get these results. Not if you looking for a sweet tasting pie. Mom goes to the same apple tree year after year and only selects the ones her knowledge tells here will work. She lets the rest fall to the ground and the deer eat them. Dogmen go through the same breeding program year after year and there are no culls. Only money to be made at someone else's expense.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-23-2020 02:34 PM:

Reuben I just have to add to your 'Negative outcome"
and turn it into my positive. Ask you if it doesn't change your mind about your pup.

Feed the pups and turn them out to play. Real life situation at my place just like at yours. Then it is time to put them up and you call one and it comes and you put it up. A couple and I have them here, have learned not to come and be put up. They see you put the first dog up and they wonder off to the other side of the fenced area and they don't want to be put up. Actually aren't these two the smartest pups. They know what is coming and want to avoid it. Here is where your negative becomes my positive. I don't chase them, they can't outrun what is coming. LOL I put my magical collar on their neck. The smart one (your opinion) I might think it is the dumb one as it isn't smart enough to know it is fixing to get penned up. Comes and I put it in their pen. The SMART one in my opinion sees this and decides it wants its freedom. Soon learns that no matter how smart and how much freedom it wants. My magical collar works in conjunction with what I want so they better respond and just get a little smarter. I want them to come and they do or they hear that magical tone from the collar. Followed by lightning if they don't respond. Which they do and in a prompt manner. So even our opinion on what is a smart dog is different. But that is ok. You feed yours and I feed mine and we work together to there the betterment of the sport so youngsters in the future can have dogs to train and learn from.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Posted by yadkinriver on 11-23-2020 03:13 PM:

I prefer a pup that bonds with me, looks me in the eye and trys to please me with no forceful stimulation. It's not that hard with the right handling although some forceful training may be necessary later in life.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-23-2020 04:20 PM:

Good bakers/Moms know which apples to get or buy.

Would you say that these 4 week old pups are "imprinted"?

Posted by Reuben on 11-23-2020 04:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Good bakers/Moms know which apples to get or buy.

Would you say that these 4 week old pups are "imprinted"?

Well I like them pretty good...they are beautiful and healthy...and they are interested in what smell is falling off the tree...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by yadkinriver on 11-23-2020 04:57 PM:

If you're not careful they're gonna be imprinted with looking for hot dogs hanging in trees.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-23-2020 05:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
If you're not careful they're gonna be imprinted with looking for hot dogs hanging in trees.

Using their noses to make sure that they have the right tree before they "lock down".

Posted by yadkinriver on 11-23-2020 07:01 PM:

I sure do like to see pups fat and slick like that. Can tell they've been took care of. BTW do ya shake one down to them every now and then?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-23-2020 07:35 PM:

betta shop tony

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-23-2020 07:46 PM:

Thats not a fair question Richard. Don't think most people think the same about a year old Redbone as they do and soft and cute puppy. LOL good luck with them. Lets talk in a year or so,

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-23-2020 09:13 PM:

A couple from her first litter were running/treeing by themselves at 6 mos. They are 14 mos old now and 5 or 6 are being hunted by themselves. They were "started" just like these. Of course their mother, grandmother and great grandmother were "started" on that same tree. Surely you have seen the pictures. When that old tree dies, I guess that I will just have to quit.

Posted by River Birch Run on 11-26-2020 03:24 PM:

Re: Make it negative ore make it positive?

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Call it training, imprinting or epigenetics...positives or negatives

Examples below...and speaking from the school of hard knocks...😁

A negative outcome...
Feed the pups in their 10ft x 10ft kennel first thing in the morning and then turn them out to play while you clean the pen...when it’s time to put the pups up they won’t come...call and beg them to come and they still won’t come...
Why aren’t they coming and what have they learned?
Well it’s a lot more fun in the back yard...So you attempted to call them in and that didn’t work and so you had to chase them down...after a while they learn they can outrun you...and they they start fearing you...boy, they have learned quite a bit...all because they were fed first...

A positive outcome...
Turn the pups out to play in the yard before feeding while cleaning the pen...

It is time to put the pups up...make up the feed...call pups like your calling them out of the woods...as they come running to your calls snap your fingers as they come by giving the command to kennel...you pet them up good as they eat and as you watch for aggression correct it as needed...

So feeding last got you many positive results afterwards...we can make itcomplicated or effortless...

Reuben nailed it here!

So young and dumb I use to hang the food bucket in the tree and get the whole litter to tree on it before I would walk them back to the kennel to feed. So you can guess what happened next. As they got older as soon as they seen me walk out the door with the bucket the whole kennel would go nuts. Nothing like having a bunch of barking dogs when you go out to do chores. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

__________________
Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

Posted by Reuben on 11-26-2020 04:13 PM:

Re: Re: Make it negative ore make it positive?

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
Reuben nailed it here!

So young and dumb I use to hang the food bucket in the tree and get the whole litter to tree on it before I would walk them back to the kennel to feed. So you can guess what happened next. As they got older as soon as they seen me walk out the door with the bucket the whole kennel would go nuts. Nothing like having a bunch of barking dogs when you go out to do chores. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

thanks...my post was not about selecting pups...it was about training the pups...we can make it easy or we can make it complicated to where we become frustrated and the pups will start to not trust us...turn the pups loose first and then feed after they are tired and even more hungry...very very simple by feeding last...a win win for many things...sets up the foundation for many things including breaking to gunfire at 10 weeks of age...

about your dogs barking when they see the feed bucket...

I used to make a mistake similar to what you created for yourself and the feed bucket...

When I stepped out the back door I would sometimes call and hiss and clap my hands and the dogs got excited and barked...then I would quiet them down...that was definitely the wrong thing to do...every time I stepped out the back door the dogs got excited and barked and I would quiet them down...

so one day my brain clicked and I changed what I had been doing...if dogs are barking I shut them up...and each time I went out to them if they barked I wouldn't go to them...did not give attention to them when barking...they bark because they want attention...if we go to them they are training us and we will be in a vicious cycle...

another thing when dogs bark from within their kennel...they are willing to take a little punishment when barking...the reward is bigger than the punishment...

the punishment is not harsh just needs to be sustained until the dog gets in his dog house and stays there foe a few minutes...I stand by to make sure he does...if the dog starts fearing you then your not doing it right...

this hasn't worked 100 percent but it has made it much better...I also use the Garmin Bark limiter...

The bottom line...do not encourage the dogs to bark where you don't want them to bark...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by River Birch Run on 11-27-2020 02:01 PM:

As soon as my pups are split up they learn what the shock collar is. I'm a big fan of the tone button. I just hang one collar on the kennel now if someone steps out of line bump it and all the dogs know to keep quiet. They are all light broke as well. We can just shine a light at the kennel if someone is howling and they run to the box. We started using these methods because i've had nothing but trouble with bark collars. I still have two 20 yr old tri trons that work great. But I prob. have $1000 worth of bran new bark collars that are worthless. False shocks, or won't come out of sleep mode.

__________________
Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

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