UKC Forums - Independent???

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Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-12-2020 06:24 PM:

Mike, piazon is at the top of the list for independence from what I’ve been told and seen. He definitely left his mark. You ought to sell me a couple straws on piazon. I would appreciate it lol

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-12-2020 07:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
The one that I'm obviously most familiar with is Piazon. Like himself, he threw a high percentage of pups that were naturally independent and payed little to no mind of what the dogs around them were doing. I can't think of seeing him or any of his offspring leave because another dog covered them, though I did own a litter mate brother to Piazon I appropriately named Loner that sometimes would. I once had a guy pull me aside on a cast one night while hunting my Abbie female and say tell me the truth do you have something stuffed in her ears so she can't hear other dogs lol. There is a young dog out of Goomba (a Piazon son) named Brutus that is carrying on the family natural independence characteristic . It's a trait I personally can't go to a hunt without. I could take no pride in winning a cast because my dog went along with someone else's and backed them on coon they treed.

I agree with you 100% I want to win because the hound went and treed its own coon. I don't have room for me too dogs

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Posted by nextcoonhunters on 10-12-2020 09:31 PM:

Just curious about this independent thing

So when you'll cut loose in a 4 dog cast, if turned in on a hot track just what do you expect your dog to do? There's only a few options I can think of.
A: dog put in with the others and tree the sucker
B: dog either go a different direction or go deeper past that track and find it's own so it's not me tooing along with other hounds.
C: just stand there and look stupid
Or If your dog does something else please elaborate.

Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-12-2020 09:48 PM:

Independent hound doesn’t care about other dogs, he runs track and tree’s a coon. Doesn’t matter what anything else does.

Dead independent goes a different direction or deeper. Doesn’t want to be with anything.

Independent to a fault hound runs the track and tree’s first but leaves when other dogs pack in on the tree.

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-12-2020 10:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Karl
Independent hound doesn’t care about other dogs, he runs track and tree’s a coon. Doesn’t matter what anything else does.

Dead independent goes a different direction or deeper. Doesn’t want to be with anything.

Independent to a fault hound runs the track and tree’s first but leaves when other dogs pack in on the tree.

good explanation

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 10-12-2020 10:05 PM:

Mee too or slower track dog

quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Karl
Independent hound doesn’t care about other dogs, he runs track and tree’s a coon. Doesn’t matter what anything else does.

So a slightly slower track but independent hound could consistently look like a me too dog?

Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-12-2020 11:16 PM:

If he is consistently covered on track by a faster track dog. If not, I would expect the dog to by by himself a majority of the time as he is not going to run to a hound that is struck in. He should leave out every time like he is being hunted alone.

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Posted by nextcoonhunters on 10-13-2020 02:16 AM:

Okay so what do you guys want one to do

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
So when you'll cut loose in a 4 dog cast, if turned in on a hot track just what do you expect your dog to do? There's only a few options I can think of.
A: dog put in with the others and tree the sucker
B: dog either go a different direction or go deeper past that track and find it's own so it's not me tooing along with other hounds.
C: just stand there and look stupid
Or If your dog does something else please elaborate.

Posted by gcblues on 10-13-2020 02:36 AM:

Independent

I watched a 2 hour hunt last night 10 coons treed . Every tree was made by single dogs .

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Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-13-2020 02:45 AM:

If I cut loose on top of a hot track I would expect my hound to run and tree it. That’s that particular situation. Now when I cut my hound loose in a cast. I want to be able to cut him facing west while everyone else cuts north, and my hound continues to shoot out west. Not to horse race with the other hounds to just do it. If they strike a track 50 yards away from my hound I expect my hound to not cover them but to continue like they are deaf. Not dysfunctional. Of coarse these are things I want, not necessarily what I always have.

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Posted by gcblues on 10-13-2020 02:46 AM:

Independent

Re: Loner
quote:
Originally posted by gcblues
Will this hound you describe stay treed if another dog covers it?

My experience they’ll stay if it’s their tree . I have two females like that. In thin coon and rough terrain it frustrates me at times. Makes me turn one at a time unless I have plenty of time.

The reason I asked, around 15 years ago I owned one that was a dead loner. That sucker would leave his tree if another dog came in and covered him. Would hold all the pressure in the world, but absolutely never did tree with another dog, even when he made the tree. I’d say he was probably an exception, but his type of independence I feel was driven by quirkiness or social dysfunction as some say. From my limited experience, the ones that just do their own thing every time you cast them and are unaffected by other dogs around them sure don’t come in bunches, nor are they commonly reproduced. If any gyp/stud threw this trait in 1/4 of every litter they had regardless of the other dog mated with, their owner would be extremely fortunate.

If mine strike the track hot with another dog they’ll go the distance and tree with them. If a dog comes in to them they’ll stay. I’d be pissed if they leave their tree lol.

They both have Piazon up close.

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Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-13-2020 02:58 AM:

I agree, I never want one to leave a tree. Come hell or high water he better be there.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 10-13-2020 02:07 PM:

Doesn't it really boil down to what ever works for the dog to get a win.
If there slow tracking why track against other dogs? Ya need to shock them away from the other dogs tracking.
If they are not a quality enough track dog to make the correct tree with a coon why have them back another dog? Shock them off trees with other dogs.
The list just keeps going.
A good trainer and lots of dogs may be the answer.

Posted by Surveyor on 10-13-2020 03:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
Doesn't it really boil down to what ever works for the dog to get a win.
If there slow tracking why track against other dogs? Ya need to shock them away from the other dogs tracking.
If they are not a quality enough track dog to make the correct tree with a coon why have them back another dog? Shock them off trees with other dogs.
The list just keeps going.
A good trainer and lots of dogs may be the answer.

Pam
This post is about naturally independant dogs, not man made. I hardly ever shock a dog for anything in fact I struggle with my garmin trying to remember how, in rare instances I think I need, to use the shock function.

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Posted by nextcoonhunters on 10-13-2020 03:40 PM:

Don't mean to highjack the post but

Naturally independent plus man trained and can tree coons!!!!
So what's missing? A few dogs have been described in this post so what traits is missing? Why ain't those independent, go there own way and get a coon treed on the front page each month? Just what traits missing? This question is asked not to offend anyone, just curious what other traits we need to be looking to put in to win it all?

Posted by Heikki on 10-13-2020 06:33 PM:

Re: Don't mean to highjack the post but

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Naturally independent plus man trained and can tree coons!!!!
So what's missing? A few dogs have been described in this post so what traits is missing? Why ain't those independent, go there own way and get a coon treed on the front page each month? Just what traits missing? This question is asked not to offend anyone, just curious what other traits we need to be looking to put in to win it all?

In my case the trait missing is me! Like a lot of others In coon hunting When you have to work everyday & have a family, time is hard to come bye. As far as naturally independent once you have that true natural independent, accurate, get gone type dog it will change your standards forever. These type of blue dogs are not abundantly available

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Posted by steeb_63 on 10-13-2020 07:46 PM:

im just reading this post and im with Vic where are the other traits?? im no handler and know for a fact its a problem with lonesome. along with an automatic strike dog and alotta luck it will happen someday. i believe B C was close and i would like to produce one of the same. lonesome is for sure a loner who is reproducing a good percentage of that same trait. im just waiting for the right one to pop out

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Posted by gcblues on 10-13-2020 11:00 PM:

Independent

I’m not sure what you mean “other traits” but besides being independent I like them to go hunting, open on track , be accurate. Having a good mouth and doing it all fast is also nice . Same thing we all want .Mine have some of these lol. Part of the trouble is definitely me. I don’t hunt enough and I’m too quick to call it a night . I work 5 days a week and These Fla woods discourage me .Im not that tough .

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Posted by pamjohnson on 10-13-2020 11:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Pam
This post is about naturally independant dogs, not man made. I hardly ever shock a dog for anything in fact I struggle with my garmin trying to remember how, in rare instances I think I need, to use the shock function.

maybe natural, maybe not. I guess that depends on the goal. Are ya breeding and want to reproduce the trait or are ya a comp hunter and want a good one to win with.
Most professional athletes have a trainer that helps bring out the best in a hopefully already great prospect. Coonhounds aren't no different.

Most breeders don't go pro. The pro's don't breed because
there plenty busy with a single individual and don't really worry about what it's breeding is , just how it can win.

Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-14-2020 03:04 AM:

I’m talking about genetically independent, not shock collar independence. Pro athletes have to have the genetics to be great athletes. A true “puncher” in boxing is born with power, can’t be man made. You can’t teach heart, grit, the will to win.

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Posted by Ryan Karl on 10-14-2020 03:10 AM:

A dog needs the entire package. I’m not saying that if a hound is independent that he can win everything. You need the package. And in my opinion, independence is high on the list of things needed.

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R.I.P.

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-14-2020 03:57 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Karl
A dog needs the entire package. I’m not saying that if a hound is independent that he can win everything. You need the package. And in my opinion, independence is high on the list of things needed.

being independent is the same as being a leader. leaders have the brains to lead same as independent hounds have the ability to do their own thing. followers are the same as the me too dogs in my opinion. pack dogs rely on the leader to get the job done. I'm with you that independence is at the top of my list also. I want to hunt a leader not a follower.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 10-14-2020 12:55 PM:

Top of the list

I rank independence high in the list of hunting traits. But it's a long ways from the most important to me. First and foremost I want accurateness. Does no good in my opinion if the dog is by itself and slick. First on the tree to last on a tree, with dogs or all alone it best have the meat or it doesn't matter anyway. For me faults with independence would be, like the Joe dog I hunted if it doesn't finish the track because it gets beat to the tree, if one leaves when dogs come in, or if the dog out ranges it's mouth on a regular basis. It does no good in a hunt if the dog gets gone treed with the meat but everytime is out of hearing. And that seems to be a problem around here in all breeds lately. But yes a dog needs to have its own brain. Enough to be able to get it done on its own, plus go on when others pull slick and getter done. I don't like me too dogs at all. But when they really look stupid is when they cover slick.

Posted by pamjohnson on 10-14-2020 02:21 PM:

Well, naturally independent to the degree you fellows want I have not seen, atleast not a worthwhile dog. So I have no help for you. Even if I owned it I would guess it would be a mentally dysfunctional dog unless it had training that caused it to operate in the fashion you fellows want.
I have seen some nice independent dogs don't get me wrong just not independent to the degree you fellows are talking about all in 1 package. Natural ,dead loaner, not dysfunctional, and a top cooner.
Good luck reproducing that with consistency. Most people would just like to train 1

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 10-14-2020 03:40 PM:

Walker guy called still laughing

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
being independent is the same as being a leader. leaders have the brains to lead same as independent hounds have the ability to do their own thing. followers are the same as the me too dogs in my opinion. pack dogs rely on the leader to get the job done. I'm with you that independence is at the top of my list also. I want to hunt a leader not a follower.

I read that to a comp walker hunter and he said a guy that hunts comp with blueticks wrote that. I said yes. He laughed the rest of the time. I don't know what he could have found so funny?

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