UKC Forums - Coon vs circle trees

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-- Coon vs circle trees (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928533173)

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 09-30-2020 05:22 PM:

Re: Dog Faults

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry

Dogs are faster and quicker, but in order for most dogs to be faster they must run hotter tracks.
There NEVER has been many cold nosed dogs with the ability to be FAST. Just my opinion, Ken Risley

Slow as we know today doesn't mean cold nosed and fast doesn't mean hotter tracks.
Tracks are still the same because how a coon lays a track is still the same. But people have always associated a dog boo hoo around and eventually getting treed cold nosed.
What if those dogs really were just poor track dogs not cold nosed? Ya they rarely missed because they took their time and checked trees and the pack finally decided on the right one. How often did it take more than just one dog to get a coon treed. All the tracks couldn't have been old bad tracks that required such a cold nosed dog and that long to get one treed.
To many still hunt low population coon areas where tracking is more limited and difficult yet it doesn't take them that long to get a coon treed when they get it worked up. Many now have witnessed dogs today taking that boo hooing track away from that dog when cut after him.
What if the ambush dogs of today are just that fast and some are superior lay up dogs?
What if as a whole dogs are just that much better track dogs than those 40-50 years or longer ago?
We know that all breeds are breeding for different traits than dogs once were. What if we are at a moment in time when we are finally about to get it right? If we are can we stay at the precipice without falling off back to where we started from?
My point, our description of the dogs then and now may be completely wrong.

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Posted by OLD TIMER on 09-30-2020 10:42 PM:

I bet “if” I was —

a Walker Breeder and would take, let’s say, a “hound” that had 1/4 Running Walker 1/4 English Pointer and half Treeing Walker and he did real good and won some Big Hunts he may just breed a few females. Would the Pointer give him the running gear and heart and the Running Walker blood the speed-could that have been the secret to a winning mix???

Just asking for a friend

__________________
OLD TIMER

Posted by Kler Kry on 09-30-2020 11:17 PM:

Fast Cold Nosed Dogs

I had a friend that spent his life trying to find dogs of superior ability and he believed that the secret was crossbreeds as he 'd never seen a registered dog that met his standards. He was always trying to find another cross like the one that produced Corb, Friday and Saturday. The sire was Porkchops, a grade bluetick that was part english setter and the mother was purebred Kentucky Running Walker. His name was Ross Porter.

I've observed that outstanding trackdogs will cause normally loaner type dogs to become packdogs after a couple coon or the loaner will just disappear for the night even though more than capable of treeing their own coon. The dogs know when they are out classed better than we do.

Posted by pamjohnson on 10-01-2020 12:04 AM:

I have been around the hunts for 40+ years and many youngsters may be surprised to know that in the last couple years I have seen some of the slowest track dogs i ever seen. Ever. That also includes the slowest tracking Walkers. I don't know if it is worse or if it doesn't matter much but these slow track dogs i have seen are winning fairly often. Tree a coon alone and press dough. Winner.

Posted by OLD TIMER on 10-01-2020 01:47 AM:

Asking for a friend—

We see the zones scores 600-800+
Then we get the cream of the crop, the “best” 4. We put them in 400 acres in Indiana that wasn’t hunted for weeks and 225 wins?

What are we missing?

__________________
OLD TIMER

Posted by honalieh on 10-01-2020 03:47 AM:

What I was thinking.

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Tyler, you are correct, I have been hunting over 55 years and I DEFINITELY know today's dogs are much better across the board. I have seen and hunted top coon dogs from the 70's until now the 2020 era and I see way more decent dogs today than back in the early years. Today's dogs are naturally cleaner dogs, do not run as much trash and most can tree coons by themselves and start at an early age. It was a rarity to see any dog that could tree a coon by themselves under one year old back in the day. Dave

Todays dogs, as a rule, are bred much better. Certainly not as much trash. Certainly a stronger treeing instinct. Those often go together.

I don't see a difference at the top of the scale (maybe not as good)?

Where I see the difference is that a much higher percentage can make at least a decent dog, and a much lower percentage will be outright duds.

Does that mean our dogs are better today? Absolutely not. But, our chances of getting a pup and having it make a decent or better dog today is much better. We haven't made the top higher. What we have done is pulled up the middle (that's really what better breeding does).

Think Horse Racing. At the top end, we may not have another Secretariat. But, I'd bet that as a general rule, the middle horses are faster. Secretariat wouldn't win by 30 lengths today.

Again. We haven't raised the top. But, through better breeding, we've raised the middle.

Posted by Dan&Ann on 10-01-2020 12:48 PM:

Fire Building

I think we all know that if you have time to build a fire with a dog trailing that most likely that hound is hung up on a track it cannot move...Mr. Alpha has shown us all what kind of hound you are feeding. You know if he is covering that same track over and over and over and then pow he slams a tree that has been to twenty times...Mr. Alpha also show that hound that is not hunting a track but is more of a flush type quail dog that scares a coon up a tree two miles away and has the coon 90 percent of the time...Its all in what or how you want to hunt really...

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Posted by novicane65 on 10-01-2020 03:37 PM:

Re: Asking for a friend—

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
We see the zones scores 600-800+
Then we get the cream of the crop, the “best” 4. We put them in 400 acres in Indiana that wasn’t hunted for weeks and 225 wins?

What are we missing?

Just because the ground the cast hunted on was in Indiana doesn't mean there was a ton of coon to tree there. And just because the ground hadn't been hunted in weeks means nothing. And do you think maybe because the guide hadn't been there in weeks, he didn't know the coons moved off the feed they were on there previously? I know I wasn't there and I'd hate to speculate the way you did. There's plenty of reasons why the scores could be low. But I don't think dog power is a reason on that cast. I know the dogs were probably tired but I know the dog that won it "only treed 1 coon" but he made zero mistakes. And if the coons just weren't there to tree then that's not anyone's fault, not even the guide.

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Posted by novicane65 on 10-01-2020 03:40 PM:

Re: I bet “if” I was —

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
a Walker Breeder and would take, let’s say, a “hound” that had 1/4 Running Walker 1/4 English Pointer and half Treeing Walker and he did real good and won some Big Hunts he may just breed a few females. Would the Pointer give him the running gear and heart and the Running Walker blood the speed-could that have been the secret to a winning mix???

Just asking for a friend

So try it and find out. Only person holding you back is YOU.

Posted by novicane65 on 10-01-2020 03:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I have been around the hunts for 40+ years and many youngsters may be surprised to know that in the last couple years I have seen some of the slowest track dogs i ever seen. Ever. That also includes the slowest tracking Walkers. I don't know if it is worse or if it doesn't matter much but these slow track dogs i have seen are winning fairly often. Tree a coon alone and press dough. Winner.

The reason the "independent" dogs are popular is because its easier to not have to compete on tracks if you're alone. I know I sure like a fast track dog but the truly fast ones are few and far between in any breed.

Posted by OLD TIMER on 10-01-2020 06:29 PM:

Novicane65

Don’t have to, it already was done. And it worked😉😉 This was told by his owner and I have no reason not to have believed him.

He won the ACHA World Championship. He had the feet of the Pointer along with the white body and the little brown patch at the base of his tail.

Was a good move and put the drive and get deep that some wanted.

I owned an English Pointer and hunted birds behind him. Unbelievable how hard they will go. And the nose they have is hard to describe!! I seen him and his sire hunt in dry and windy conditions in Iowa and Missouri and find birds off of scent that made one enjoy the ability of their nose.

Wonder if this “could be” why some are a little tight on track, my pointer never said a word when he was working scent😂😂

Just saying???

__________________
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Posted by shadinc on 10-01-2020 08:29 PM:

Re: I bet “if” I was —

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
a Walker Breeder and would take, let’s say, a “hound” that had 1/4 Running Walker 1/4 English Pointer and half Treeing Walker and he did real good and won some Big Hunts he may just breed a few females. Would the Pointer give him the running gear and heart and the Running Walker blood the speed-could that have been the secret to a winning mix???

Just asking for a friend

What you're talking about is a freak. What did your friend do the the rest of the litter that treed like a running Walker, ran like a treeing Walker(which ain't bad0 and had a mouth like a pointer?

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Posted by OLD TIMER on 10-01-2020 10:59 PM:

its not hard to get---

A Running Walker that trees "IF" you have the old Liquor blood in their veins. Some of my coyote hounds that I have had for 22 years will tree with the best Tree Hounds out there. They have been used on bear, bobcats and yes even coon. One I had called Lucky in the late winter would get under one if he couldn't fine a coyote and there was no calling him off, you had to lead him off the tree. Funny thing is he was a belly rubbing tree hound that had a nice steady chop.

As far as a freak?? Don't think so because there where some others in the litter that made a name for their selves also. Just never won a World Championship.

__________________
OLD TIMER

Posted by shadinc on 10-02-2020 05:21 AM:

I'm wondering. Are coon hound breeders the only breeders that go away from what they've supposedly been improving on for generations? Do bird dog people ever 'add' something to enhance their bloodline? Maybe bloodhound to strengthen scenting ability? Do thoroughbred breeders ever add some Clydesdale for more muscle? Has anybody ever seen a pup out of one of these world champion bird dog crosses that would rather point than run a track? A while back we had a story about a world champion that had to be sheared like a sheep before every hunt or he looked like a spotted collie. I've been coon hunting for 62 years and I've never seen one of thee oddities. Has anyone else?

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 10-02-2020 02:29 PM:

Lol im with ya! Breed solid coonhounds and there is nothing better, sure they(outside crosses) will produce a freak pony here and there, but see how long they keep it going.
Most will not do the work it takes to produce a fine hound and resort to something else.
You can add pointer in and add big hunt ambush style, but you can live with poor mouths, short ears, no tree, hyper etc....popping up for years to come.............it don't wash out real quick

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