UKC Forums - Have to have all grand ped to make coondog

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Blueticks: Stud Dog and Kennel Promotion (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=56)
-- Have to have all grand ped to make coondog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928526840)

Posted by Vic Stoll on 02-02-2020 03:59 PM:

Very interesting thread with interesting responses

It is all relative

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as has already been mentioned. Expecting anyone to accept and embrace another’s viewpoint is as futile as spitting in the wind. In the Bluetick world, what is puzzling to me is why there aren’t more likeminded people working together to achieve a better version of their goal. Is it human nature, jealousy, predetermined bias?

How many Bluetickers out there have a goal of coming up with a hound that can be a for real contender in the elimination style hunts? I’d say most of the ones who are, are the ones already throwing their hat in that ring or have dabbled in it some. From my sheltered little corner of the world, I’d love to see more of these likeminded Bluetickers working together to come up with more of that style of Bluetick.

Regardless of anyone’s choices, likes, preferences, or style of Blue hound, I wish you all nothing but the best in your pusuit of it!

__________________
Home of:
A couple blue haired potlickers

Gone but not forgotten:
Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

Posted by BluBritches on 02-02-2020 04:34 PM:

Vic

Well said

It is a topic of pure opinion and there really isn't a wrong answer with one exception. My only exception (mo) is that buying a puppy with out researching what your buying is simply wrong but nevertheless........

As you said: the style of bluetick that could be a real contender I immediately realized NO that is not the style of bluetick I want. I pleasure hunt with friends more than I comp hunt and even when I comp hunt I go to see others hounds work if I win great if not ok (as long as it's a fun hunt)
And as I mentioned before a blue dog beating an old cold track around ain't winning in the hunts very often and I like colder nose hounds
I like the old time style mouth but in a comp hunt a high pitch distinctive mouth cuts the air good and stands out (not saying all comp dogs are this way just listing a few of the differences between what I considered a "bluetick coonhound" and a world contender
Another big one for me is that deep and alone perspective
I get it it's great for the hunts but it makes a night out with the boys difficult
Pleasure hunt me and 3 buddies we cut 1 goes N 1000 yards 1 goes S 0.75 miles 1 goes........well you get it meet you boys back at the truck around midnight lol

If I was looking to make a big name title dog I'd be looking for different traits for sure and some of what's important to me now would be less important but I'd still be looking at the traits exhibited and the best place to get them even if it was in untitled dogs.......for example if I wanted such a hound I might consider some of the big cat lines as a possibility. Maybe breed a real producing female to a high end cat stud

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-03-2020 02:48 PM:

Still off topic 7 cross in this ped

I Might not know how to count but I count 7 crosses in this ped and 3 out of those 7 were titled to untitled hounds. Don't know who made most of the crosses but read Norm was a good enough dog.

............ GRNITECH 'PR' DOUBLE SPRINGS ECHO II
..........GRNITECH 'PR'DOUBLE SPRINGS BO'S BLUE PETE
............ CH 'PR' CLEAR RIVER BLUE BRANDI
........GRNITECH 'PR' BACKWOODS TUFF E NUFF ECHO JO
............ FCH GRNITECH GRCH 'PR' VINING RUNNIN BULLET
..........'PR'DOUBLE SPRINGS BLUE ANNIE
............ NITECH 'PR' SPRINGS BLUE TROLLOP

GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' JOHNSONS BLUE ECHO NORM

............ NITECH 'PR' QUINN SOUTHERN BLUE THUNDER
.......... GRNITECH 'PR' TUCKER'S BLUE BOOMER
........... 'PR' CHRISTIAN'S BLUE GRETCHEN
........NITECH 'PR' BLUE CREEK ALICE
........... CH GRNITECH 'PR' B & D'S BLUE SPIKE
.......... GRNITECH 'PR' B & D'S BLUE RUBY
........... GRNITECH 'PR' TWILITE BLUE POISON IVY

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-03-2020 03:28 PM:

back to topic

started this post to show you can produce winners regardless so lets get back to that.
Examples
Please don't get your feathers ruffled yet.
GRCH’PR’HAGERMANS’ SMOKIN BL. JAKE 7 titled dogs
GRCH GRNITECH’PR’UCHTMANS FOGGY MTN BLAZE 5 titled
GRNITECH(2) GRCH’PR’STEBER’S MIGHTY LONESOME II 5 titled dogs
GRNITECH’PR’TUCKER’S BLUE BOOMER 61 titled dogs
GRNITECH’PR’MANNS’ WILD-N-BLUE POUNDER 53 titled dogs
GRNITECH’PR’MEAD’S SUPER JET 6 44 titled dogs
CH GRNITECH’PR’MAD DOG ATA GIRL BLUE 3 titled dogs
PR’MIDNIGHT GAUGE’S BLUE SKY 5 titled dogs
PR’WILSON’S BLUE BELl 3 titled dogs
PR’STEBERS LITTLE KRAYZEE 3 titled dogs
NITECH GRCH’PR’SPRING HILL BLUE JENNY 23 titled dogs
GRNITECH’PR’PRAIRIE CREEK BLUE JOSIE 18 titled dogs
PR’MAILES’ BLUE RUDY’S SUE 15 titled dogs
GRNITECH’PR’LAWRASON’S BLUE ELLE 13 titled dogs

Some BIG NAME DOGS in that list that either came straight out of an open dog or are themselves an open dog. Male side of things hard to knock the impact Bommer, Pounder, and Jet 6 have had on the breed. The female side Jenny, Josie, Sue, and Elle have proven themselves to be in a lot of pedigrees. so just how many titled dogs you think wouldn't be around if none of those crosses were made. at one time not only was Boomer on the current reproducers list but so was dogs out of him. No Boomer no Banjo, Alice, and ... Same way with all the rest. So back on the topic, not talking about any other trait other than the ability to win. Hats off to all that made these cross and people who were willing to try a cross off of "unproven dogs" as some would say. Please before trying to bash and say title only please look at the hounds you are happy with, glance at their papers and without some chance-taking and stepping outside the box "of must be titled and all grand ped" breeders just where would the breed be today. For those who weren't adding that comes to 258 titled dogs out of those dogs, not including many many more that go back to them.

PS unless UKC is completely messed up I read GRCH’PR’HAGERMANS’ SMOKIN BL. JAKE was out of GRNITECH’PR’NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON X ‘PR’HAGERMAN’S SMOKIN’ FLY. Just for you Bill jr.

Posted by pamjohnson on 02-04-2020 02:37 PM:

Yes untitled dogs can produce winners.

I'm kinda lost on your point I guess? I'm guessing you are thinking there is to much value put on titles?

Posted by Surveyor on 02-04-2020 03:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
Yes untitled dogs can produce winners.

I'm kinda lost on your point I guess? I'm guessing you are thinking there is to much value put on titles?

His point is he's trying to prove your just as likely to get a winner from pr dogs as titled dogs. He's throwing out some strange stats to try to prove his point, though, while no one will argue that there have been pr dogs that threw great dogs, the percentages are crystal clear that titled dogs currently and historically have thrown a higher percentage of titled dogs. But it's like arguing with someone from the flat earth society, no matter how many globe's you put in front of them, they will take a sledge hammer and beat them flat and hand it back to you saying "see there it's flat" !

__________________
Mike Sheppard
Sheppard's Northern Blue's
Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
2 time world finalist, 10th overall and high scoring Bluetick of the 2010 UKC World Coonhound Championship
NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON, (RIP)
his littermate brother
UKC NT CH SHEPPARDS NORTHERN
BLUE LONER (RIP)
UKC GR NT CH RATTLERS BLUE SKY (RIP)
UKC Gr NT CH, PKC Ch Sheppard's Northern Blue Abbie, (PiazonxSky) UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Sheppards Northern Blue Punkin (PiazonXAlice) High scoring Bluetick of the 2015 (50th anniversary) Grand American, 2017 National Grand Nite Champion of breed, 2017 BBOA zone 4 Nite hunt dog of the year. Queen of hunt on 2019 Grand National Bluetick Reunion, 5th place and High Scoring Bluetick of 2019 UKC world Nite hunt Championship, 2019 Triple Crown Winner.
UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Mckintosh's Blue Flame Chopper
Gr Nt Ch Sheppards Northern Blue Goomba (Piazon X Dizzie) 14th place 2017 UKC world coon hound championship 100 purina point cast wins in 2018
and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 04:10 PM:

Thought the point was

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Well for everyone that thinks you have to have an all grand ped to make a coondog, don't look at the top producing females in the January 2020 bloodlines.

And no I wouldn't beat a globe flat. But if you told me the world was round I'd have to do my own research as it has been pointed out in this post you sir have the ability for not telling the whole truth.

Now back to the point. Yes pr dogs that have never been hauled to town but have the traits can produce coondogs. Sometimes their pups can and do surpass dogs out of titled dogs. I love the all grand or only title talk. Most that say stuff like that look like my dog when he's licking himself. They are just trying to stroke their own ego. Again to my knowledge there is no such thing as an all grand ped, in any breed. If you want to prove me wrong and say only titled dogs deserve to be on the producers list, well shut up put your boots on title enough pups out of a titled dogs and bump them pr dogs off the list.

Ding ding next round

Posted by Surveyor on 02-04-2020 04:21 PM:

Re: Thought the point was

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
And no I wouldn't beat a globe flat. But if you told me the world was round I'd have to do my own research as it has been pointed out in this post you sir have the ability for not telling the whole truth.

Now back to the point. Yes pr dogs that have never been hauled to town but have the traits can produce coondogs. Sometimes their pups can and do surpass dogs out of titled dogs. I love the all grand or only title talk. Most that say stuff like that look like my dog when he's licking himself. They are just trying to stroke their own ego. Again to my knowledge there is no such thing as an all grand ped, in any breed. If you want to prove me wrong and say only titled dogs deserve to be on the producers list, well shut up put your boots on title enough pups out of a titled dogs and bump them pr dogs off the list.

Ding ding next round

IF THERE IS ONE THING IN THIS WORLD THAT WILL GET ME FIRED UP IT'S BEING CALLED A LIAR LIKE YOU JUST DID BY WRITING HOW ITS BEEN POINTED OUT I DON'T TELL THE WHOLE TRUTH. PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW YOU CAME UP WITH THAT. THAT WILL SURE ENOUGH GET YOU A ROUND WITH ME IF YOUR BRAVE ENOUGH TO DO IT IN PERSON!

Posted by Surveyor on 02-04-2020 04:53 PM:

Ain't technology wonderful these days, where we can make up a fictional name, hide behind a computer screen and call people liars?

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 05:37 PM:

Joshua Ratliff

660-351-0293
5039 Afek Rd higginsville MO
Sorry typeo corrected now. You could have looked it up though. My number is on the fourms.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 05:45 PM:

Hypocrite

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Ain't technology wonderful these days, where we can make up a fictional name, hide behind a computer screen and call people liars?

I guess add hypocrite to the list also.

Posted by Surveyor on 02-04-2020 05:53 PM:

Re: Hypocrite

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
I guess add hypocrite to the list also.

Yep,just tried the phone number and it's fake!

Posted by hat creek mac on 02-04-2020 06:00 PM:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You can take my opinion, and put it with a dollar and buy you a cup of coffee. So if you don't agree that is okay. Just don't call me a liar.

I have always felt like if one was worthy of breeding, they should be able to at least make a NiteCh. I mean come on guys, it isn't that hard to do anymore. Most of the ukc hunts around here won't have 2 casts anymore. Some folks just breed dogs to have pups to sell. I mean seriously, if you have 20+ grown dogs and breed every female that swells on your place, you probably are more about numbers and dollars and could care less if ol Blue Momma ever makes a NiteCh as long as she can make $$$.

I read in an above post about dogs being too independent. I was not aware that the critter existed. Went hunting with a friend last night and we each took one dog. We cast these dogs in opposite directions 3 times, made 6 trees, looked at 5 coons and a den. That is a typical hunt for us. Neither dog is going to pull to the other on track or tree. How is this type dog not a pure pleasure to hunt? I think a lot of times that people make excuses for sub par type hounds by calling them "pleasure dogs." I refuse to listen to a dog boodle a track around half the night. I didn't say I don't like a hound with a good nose that can move a track quick, fast, and in a hurry. One that breaks his or her neck to cover on a tree can not eat feed on my place. Just my preference.

Opinions many times are developed from what people have been taught or from what they have heard from their peers who in fact really didn't know to begin with.

I have always said that Bluetickers are their own worst enemy. Breeding ol Handy to ol Ready has been the norm for a long time.

A truly exceptional hound doesn't come along very often. Some will hunt their whole life and never go in the woods with one. Let that sink in...

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 06:39 PM:

I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yes everyone has an opinion. nothing wrong with that. I personally don't believe breeding is the problem with blueticks. I think culling is. But you said "should be able to make a NITECH" so let's lay out our hand for everyone to see. Have you ever bred a PR dog? I own a female out of Boomer. I'm sure happy Boomer's dad was handy when his mom was ready.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 06:51 PM:

Mike

Was going to call you to help clear the air or muddy it up. But after looking though multiple pages of threads can't find your number???
Don't know you lied. Think the term the Bible used when the serpent mislead Eve is beguiled. Not a lie but not the whole truth. As for as username really! You have my number now so feel free to call. But Pizon was bred to pr dogs that just fact. No reason to argue about it. It happened and I think made some nice dogs. You should be proud instead of looking down on those females YOU bred to.

Posted by hat creek mac on 02-04-2020 06:51 PM:

To answer your question, yes I have had PR females brought to my dogs to breed. I can remember breeding some untitled females years ago. Truthfully, I don't raise many puppies to start with. I usually try to at least make my females a NiteCh today if I want to breed them. I never said that there weren't top dogs out of some PR females. I don't buy in to the "pleasure dog" excuse though. A dog that has coons when he trees and isn't a packing idiot CAN win period.

Posted by hat creek mac on 02-04-2020 06:52 PM:

Re: I don't see anything wrong with that.

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
I own a female out of Boomer. I'm sure happy Boomer's dad was handy when his mom was ready.

Is she a Nite Ch or Gr Nite Ch?

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 07:03 PM:

NITECH GRCH Ratliff's Boomin Rivers htx2

She's a NITECH. Turned down some money a time or two for her. She's still just a dog. I hunt her on a regular basis with a dog that will never be hauled to town. That guy too has been offered money for his male. Wouldn't want to hunt nightly for money against him. I have hunted in a few hunts. Seen some dogs I'd own seen some I'd cull. Everyone has there own opinion on what a coondog is but mine is they have to constantly tree coons. After that it's all person preference. Yes lots of crosses should have never been made. Wrose yet those pups should have been culled, instead of breeding again. Main problem. Most ain't hunting enough to know what faults they got.

Posted by hat creek mac on 02-04-2020 07:12 PM:

Re: NITECH GRCH Ratliff's Boomin Rivers htx2

quote:
Originally posted by nextcoonhunters
Everyone has there own opinion on what a coondog is but mine is they have to constantly tree coons.

I think you meant CONSISTENTLY. Not 100% sure.

I will agree, but will add that they need to tree coons consistently and not be affected by the things that are going on around them.

I just do not like ones with big ears and lazy gears.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 07:13 PM:

Mike

Found this number in the bluebook 765-537-5263 no answer when I called. Is that still a good number for you.

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 07:14 PM:

Mr McDonald

Give me a holler and we'll talk on the phone sometime. talk texting but Either one works constantly or consistently. I think everybody would be happy if their dog would constantly tree coons non-stop lol.

Posted by BluBritches on 02-04-2020 07:21 PM:

Well this got fun

I'm not arguing about titled dogs making coonhounds
Or barn dogs producing titled hound
I've played my examples out well but just to be sure
BIG COUNTRY big name right now without doing a search how many can tell me how many littermates he has how they are doing and if they are producing
My argument is for the brand name guys that only buy into the big name and really have little to no idea what traits (again good and bad) come with it
This post is giving me a headache so I sent my 10 year old to get me some meds. She came back holding 2 bottles. I recognize these bottles as "I HAVE BOUGHT BOTH MYSELF" one is tylenol the other is equate. She asked which one. My reply was simple read them and tell me which one is better. After she carefully examined both bottles she said daddy they are the exact same thing........ but dont worry I took the tylenol just in case the equate wasn't good enough .

As for pleasure excuse I'm sure some use it as an excuse but really I'm not
Subpar is just that regardless of where it came from or what my intentions for the dog may be...... I just view a competition style hound different than the old style bluetick. enjoy both at different times for different reasons......
But regardless of who else is into what I like or prefers something else I've already told you how to take care of it......... research the lines so you know
So you know what you're buying so you know what you're crossing so you know what you're selling but most important so you know what you're PACKING
Then if it's what you love the opinions of others won't really matter

Posted by nextcoonhunters on 02-04-2020 09:07 PM:

cleared the air

Will after a long talk we kind of cleared the air. Yeah a first it was a meetup and beat up talk. But the difference in thoughts. Is Mike right? Yes according to UKC Mike is right, on the fact that the owner of the female is the breeder. My thought might be wrong but it'll take God himself to change it. Takes 2 to tango. In people, if both parts aren't in agreement they call it rape. I think if someone wasn't willing to own the female themselves even if money is on the line they shouldn't breed it. Should the owner of the female be able to breed to whatever stud they want, without consent from the owner of the stud? Again not the correct opinion maybe, but the way I look at it takes 2 to tango. I guess instead of stud owners, we are pimps, that don't check out the johns as long as the money is good. We talk about people who breed to sell pups, and only to make money. Isn't studin a male and not filtering what it is being bred to him the same thing? There is alot of people breeding dogs for money, instead of to make coondogs. A question I would always ask anyone selling puppies is why do you think this cross will work. If they don't have a long list of reasons, I would back away. If they do I would listen to em and then do my own research, before considering across. Yes, titled dogs, for the most part, earn their titles, but it's not hard to check them out. Ask around. Pr dogs, go hunting with em multiple times check them out. Research is part but then get your pup and train it. Whether you want a good untitled coondog or a world champ, neither can be made without strapping on your boots and hitting the timber hard. And I hope that is a point we can all agree on.

Posted by wakenda creek b on 02-04-2020 10:55 PM:

There’s a lot of breeders that overlook some flaws that I’d call culling offenses. I won’t let a mean dog grow old here. I know some breeders that have male dogs that have been written up for fighting 2-3 times. 1 can be an accident but 2-3 times isn’t. I like my dogs to have titles but there’s ways to title a dog and ways to not title a dog, a dog fighting on tree is not a way to win. As far as PR dogs and titled dogs go, all my titled dogs we’re PR at one time. I’d love to have an all grand pup someday but the parents and grandparents have to be my type of dog. I know what I like and I don’t care what others think.

__________________
Brian Davis
Carrollton,Mo.64633
1(660)542-0932

Posted by Vic Stoll on 02-04-2020 10:56 PM:

Re: Re: NITECH GRCH Ratliff's Boomin Rivers htx2

quote:
Originally posted by hat creek mac
I will agree, but will add that they need to tree coons consistently and not be affected by the things that are going on around them.

Ritchie, you just said a mouthful right there!

I’ll admit I don’t get out much and have a more sheltered point of view, but the ones not affected by what’s going on around them sure don’t seem to be out there in bunches. Finding one that’s not affected, but also able to reproduce it is even more rare.

Seem to be plenty out there that are regular coon treer’s by themselves, but for whatever reason prefer to pack up when hunted with company and subject to do more negative things than when being hunted alone.

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