UKC Forums - Proposal 9 - Silent on Track

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Proposal 9 - Silent on Track (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928518902)

Posted by honalieh on 06-06-2019 05:04 AM:

Advantages/Disadvantages

Open Trailing Dog vs. Silent or Semi-Silent Dog. To me a silent dog is one that doesn't open on track. A Semi-Silent Dog is one that runs some tracks silent, but on other tracks may give you a minimal number of track barks.

Most of the dogs I've hunted over the years (70's up) have been semi-silent. The semi dogs I've hunted would open more on a colder track. Once it got warmed up, they shut up until they located.

Assumption: We are talking about good dogs (silent or open).

Hide Hunting = Advantage to the tight mouth dog. They give little to no warning they are on the trail. The coon will often be pushed up smaller trees. For this reason, you will see more coon on the outside, and, because they haven't created a ruckus and stirred things up, they can be recast right off the tree and continue to provide similar results.

To be continued (re: Message Length).

Posted by honalieh on 06-06-2019 06:20 AM:

Advantages/Disadvantages continued

Competition (pre 1981--- 100 and 100 rules). Under the 100/100 rules the tight mouth dog did have a slight disadvantage. Although the tight mouth dog could more often tree 1st, the strike dogs would quickly cover, and could still beat you on total plus points.

Competition (1981+ --- 100 and 125 rules). The pendulum swung to the advantage of the 1st tree dog. I loved this rule change! You could take 3rd strike, 1st tree, even if the 1st strike dog was always the first one to cover. You still win the cast. Back then, the strike dogs typically covered (same tree), so a 1st tree dog (tight or not) had the advantage.

Competition (more recently--- 100 and 125 rules). People realized that if you can't consistently beat a 1st tree dog with a 2nd or 3rd cover tree dog. What to do? Well, if you have a 2nd/3rd tree dog, you don't want them to cover for 75 or 50 points. You want your 2nd/3rd tree dogs to split from the 1st tree dog. That way, they get just as many tree points as a 1st tree dog. People bred and/or trained for this pretty successfully. The pendulum swings against the 1st tree dog (because they can all be 1st tree dogs---points wise). When they can all be 1st tree dogs, strike points matter. So, now the open trailing dog (more strike points) can be back to having an advantage over the tight mouthed track dog (because we have allowed 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs just as many tree points as 1st tree dogs).

So, now, a dog can strike 1st, get deep and lonely, while other dogs tree coon before him and behind him, and a babbling deep and lonely dog beats all the dogs that treed before him and behind him. It's the strike points that win it for him. That's on the surface. What really wins it for him, is that we allow a 3rd or 4th tree dog to get 1st tree dog points.

There would be no need to penalize open trailing hounds if we gave 1st tree dogs more points than 2nd, 3rd, or 4th tree dogs.

Why would we want to penalize a legitimate 1st strike, 1st tree dog, by allowing a 3rd strike, 3rd tree dog (split) get just as many points? To me, a legitimate 1st strike, 1st tree dog should be what we are striving for, not something we should be fighting against!!! I just don't believe in striving for mediocrity.

I fully understand that if you have that 3rd and 3rd dog (split), you may disagree with me.

Posted by Sgraves on 06-06-2019 11:01 AM:

Mr.Honalieh , I agree with you a little. That was a good read. Maybe am missing something, but tell me , how many legit first strick tree dogs are in these hunts? I say that remark loosely because that seems to be the hot topic. You and no one else will make me believe some of these dogs are stricking a legit track. Just because they ended up under a coon means nothing to me. I have nothing in the world against an open mouth track dog. For that matter one that does it right should win every hunt. The problem is people are trying to make everyone think they are hunting that honest track dog track to tree. Not so, time to man up an be honest.

Posted by tstroud on 06-06-2019 07:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
I guess that’s how some dog can tree a live raccoon by not saying nothing and sneaking up on it . Then again that’s the way some people are just looking for the easiest way out .

You must be worried about getting beat seeing live coon. If you're already getting the strike points with your "COONDOGS". Why you so worried about a dog getting 3rd or 4th strike? If your dog opens up, runs a good quick track, and puts a coon up a tree. You should have a clear advantage.

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 06-06-2019 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by tstroud
You must be worried about getting beat seeing live coon. If you're already getting the strike points with your "COONDOGS". Why you so worried about a dog getting 3rd or 4th strike? If your dog opens up, runs a good quick track, and puts a coon up a tree. You should have a clear advantage.

Lol you’re a funny guy or dumb as hell . I’m not worried about getting beat cause I don’t hunt the hunts no more . If I do I usually have just as good of a dog at the club house as any . But what I like is hearing a dog do good work by working a track . But sounds like you’re satisfied with just having a tree dog .

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Posted by tstroud on 06-06-2019 08:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
Lol you’re a funny guy or dumb as hell . I’m not worried about getting beat cause I don’t hunt the hunts no more . If I do I usually have just as good of a dog at the club house as any . But what I like is hearing a dog do good work by working a track . But sounds like you’re satisfied with just having a tree dog .

That's the thing though. We aren't debating on what we personally prefer. I love to hear a good open dog on track. I have also hunted a silent dog that showed me more coon than I have ever seen.

The debate, in my opinion, should be about what makes these competitions fair or unfair. Is there any advantage given to a silent dog. If you believe so, why do you think that to be the case? We have so many first strike, blaze through the woods tree dogs. What is the difference in breeding for that or breeding a tight mouth dog. The goal is to score the most points in a hunt. And tree live racoon.

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Posted by honalieh on 06-07-2019 06:04 AM:

I disagree.

quote:
Originally posted by tstroud
That's the thing though. We aren't debating on what we personally prefer. I love to hear a good open dog on track. I have also hunted a silent dog that showed me more coon than I have ever seen.

The debate, in my opinion, should be about what makes these competitions fair or unfair. Is there any advantage given to a silent dog. If you believe so, why do you think that to be the case? We have so many first strike, blaze through the woods tree dogs. What is the difference in breeding for that or breeding a tight mouth dog. The goal is to score the most points in a hunt. And tree live racoon.

I think the goal should be to breed and hunt the most balanced and outstanding coonhound that shows the meat. Points and rules can be manipulated and/or changed on a whim. Different registry's have different rules. I'd rather have a dog with outstanding abilities than one bred for the rules of a registry.

Posted by tstroud on 06-07-2019 01:27 PM:

Re: I disagree.

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
I think the goal should be to breed and hunt the most balanced and outstanding coonhound that shows the meat. Points and rules can be manipulated and/or changed on a whim. Different registry's have different rules. I'd rather have a dog with outstanding abilities than one bred for the rules of a registry.

In the broad sense I agree with you. But in the context of this thread, we are talking about altering UKC rules. Whether we like it or not. We all know that the coondogs of yesteryear have been bred to be different dogs these days. A lot more opening 20 yards after being unsnapped, then running the "track" a mile and getting treed by itself. The registries and the rules have already changed the traits people look for in dogs.

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Posted by khester7923 on 06-08-2019 02:20 PM:

ELIMINATE!! let the best cooneye showing dog win whether it babbles or is tight..we need to worry more about whats on the end of our own lead than whats on the end of another guys. If your dog trees and holds and shows more coons than mine then I loose and I go and get my dog in better shape or start over. Just because somebody else has a better dog doesnt mean i should be able to change the rules to benefit the type dog i hunt. lets cut em loose and babbling or tight, whoever has most coons win. I am more in favor of the proposals that reward the dog treeing first than the cover dogs and backpackers. JMO

Posted by Charles Pullen on 06-11-2019 02:15 PM:

Do away with the silent mouth rule and do away with fighting at the tree as well . The one that shows the most eyes and last one standing after the dust clears should win . If you ain’t packing enough then stay home boys .

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Posted by Charles Pullen on 06-11-2019 02:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by khester7923
ELIMINATE!! let the best cooneye showing dog win whether it babbles or is tight..we need to worry more about whats on the end of our own lead than whats on the end of another guys. If your dog trees and holds and shows more coons than mine then I loose and I go and get my dog in better shape or start over. Just because somebody else has a better dog doesnt mean i should be able to change the rules to benefit the type dog i hunt. lets cut em loose and babbling or tight, whoever has most coons win. I am more in favor of the proposals that reward the dog treeing first than the cover dogs and backpackers. JMO

I agree 100 💯, I would even like to see where it’s mandatory all dogs has to be silent on track . Then maybe they can catch some coons on the ground and bring it to the truck . That away we even don’t have to even walk to the tree . We just count them there at the tailgate right buddy .

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Posted by yadkintar on 06-11-2019 02:56 PM:

I think back in the day the dog that was the best athlete with the most tools won because dogs pretty much packed. Now days they scatter like a covey of quail and if ole loose lips can’t hear ole sneaky so he can back pack on him ole sneaky that trees all the coons ole loose lips handler wants to scratch ole sneaky for being silent but he waits till the end of the cast tho lol.

Tar

Posted by gpent24 on 06-11-2019 04:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
I agree 100 💯, I would even like to see where it’s mandatory all dogs has to be silent on track . Then maybe they can catch some coons on the ground and bring it to the truck . That away we even don’t have to even walk to the tree . We just count them there at the tailgate right buddy .

But it's not about your personal preference of hearing one bark on track all night. The whole post is about getting rid of a rule that gives an advantage to one dogs hunting style over the other. The end game is the dog who trees the most coons in 2 hours with the least amount of mistakes. Period.

Also in a previous post you said something about seeing what kind of track dog you have? Do they have to bark on track for them to be a faster track dog than the barking dogs? I've made a ton of first trees with my 4th strike toting dog that those 1st and 2nd strike dogs backed him at 3 minutes into his tree.

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Posted by okreddog56 on 06-11-2019 05:35 PM:

Leave it like it is i have never seen one scratched for it,most of them pitch them to get them struck in,leave the babbling rule alone just because a dog goes hunting fast and opens as soon as it smells a coon don't mean it is babbling i have hunted all kinds of them through the years and a coon dog that is independent and stayed treed will win you a lot of hunts loose mouth or tight mouth no matter what the rules are.It is about the dog getting under the most coon and doing its own work not a dog hitchhiking off another dog be it loose mouth or tight mouth.

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Posted by shadinc on 06-11-2019 07:09 PM:

This is what confuses me. Most people say it's about who trees the most coons. It's also a competition. Why do we compete for the strike and not for actually treeing the coon? Dogs that strike first and tree last, if all dogs are split, are the winners. Why does he come out on top if it took him longer to tree a coon?

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Posted by BooneMcCrary on 06-12-2019 06:04 AM:

Do away with strike points and the dog that trees the most coons should win.

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Posted by okreddog56 on 06-12-2019 04:42 PM:

If they do away with the leash lock the dog that gets treed first can get cut loose to tree another coon.

Posted by okreddog56 on 06-12-2019 04:42 PM:

If they do away with the leash lock the dog that gets treed first can get cut loose to tree another coon.

Posted by ARCOONHTR on 06-13-2019 03:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Pullen
Do away with the silent mouth rule and do away with fighting at the tree as well . The one that shows the most eyes and last one standing after the dust clears should win . If you ain’t packing enough then stay home boys .

Charles I think u may be on to something here he’ll do away with the strike points while ur at it and the breed standards hunt anything u want. U could breed some pit bull and catahoula into them deep and lonely dookie slingers and then when they got treed u wouldn’t have to worry about the time on the tree squalling rule or anything u could just bet on the dog fight!!! I like it lmao.

Posted by jdgher on 06-13-2019 05:16 AM:

I voted to remove the silent dog rule

I prefer an open hound. I voted to remove the rule. In 30 plus years, I've never been on a cast or heard about a cast where the silent dog rule was actually applied. I've been on a lot of casts that included tight mouth dogs. Have any of you seen or heard of this rule being applied?

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Posted by oldsouth123 on 06-13-2019 06:02 AM:

silent

I personally wouldn't hunt a silent dog but if you want to get technical,if a dog is stone silent and the first time he barks he's treed, he's technically strikeing coon scent,it just happens to be on the side of a tree.If it's okay to start barking off the leash and get struck,surely it' alright to strike off the side of a tree.Here's another good one.In one k.c. you can minus a dog on a possum or squirrel but can't minus him on a turkey or any other kind of bird.How stupid is that.At least the first two can climb a tree .Oh well anything to keep from getting minus.If a bird that flew into a tree ain't trash how could you possibly minus anything.The state of competition hunting is getting ridiculous.Common sense had got lost.It's about like a rich man's tax returns,it's full of loopholes.

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