UKC Forums - Fast Track

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Posted by blueticker on 03-09-2019 05:13 AM:

Theres different criteria to consider when determining a top track dog. Catching coon regularly on the ground certainly qualifies for a faster type track dog. A hound that keeps a cold track moving at a good pace can also be considered a top track dog but seldom catch a coon. Regardless of how fast, a hound that trees very few slicks can be considered a good track dog. In my first 30 years of coon hunting I always thought I had fast track dogs but seldom would catch a coon. A fast track dog should catch coon regularly. Hills and solid woods will limit the number of coon caught on the ground. When and if you ever get a top fast track dog its difficult to be satisfied with anything less.

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Posted by Ron Moore on 03-09-2019 03:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
Theres different criteria to consider when determining a top track dog. Catching coon regularly on the ground certainly qualifies for a faster type track dog. A hound that keeps a cold track moving at a good pace can also be considered a top track dog but seldom catch a coon. Regardless of how fast, a hound that trees very few slicks can be considered a good track dog. In my first 30 years of coon hunting I always thought I had fast track dogs but seldom would catch a coon. A fast track dog should catch coon regularly. Hills and solid woods will limit the number of coon caught on the ground. When and if you ever get a top fast track dog its difficult to be satisfied with anything less.

Blueticker, I agree with this statement and have 1st hand knowledge on it. I lived in the flat lands and corn fields of Indiana for 9 years. My hounds caught several coon on the ground there even though I didn't consider them as fast track dogs, just good track dogs that were good honest coon dogs. Other than that, I've lived most of my life in WV in the hills, hollers, cut over woods with a lot of vines and brush. BIG difference, coon are usually right next to a tree when the dog opens unless you have a silent dog. I have a very good track dog now and she hasn't caught the 1st coon but it sure don't take her long to get one up a tree. It probably doesn't help that she's an open track dog but not too open. Which brings up another subject. Some dogs will shut up more the further the track goes and some will just keep opening right along. There are so many variables that figure in when it comes to tracking. The one I run now runs with her head up cutting and slashing on a track and making circles to pick up the scent and keeping it going in the right direction at a fast pace. I really enjoy watching a good track dog when you can get close enough to see it. We run flashing lights on our hounds so this time of year when the leaves are down and you can see a distance in the woods, it sure tells you what your dog is doing, right or wrong, lol. IMO, dogs of today are much faster track dogs as dogs past which is a good thing as long as they don't beat the coon to the tree

Posted by bones on 03-09-2019 08:02 PM:

reading all that everyone has said , being honest with your self about the dogs we had and have now.Aren't we the ones the ones to blame for the traits that are strong right now because of the crosses we made to get a supposedly better comp style dog. I myself use to have some fantastic cold nose dogs. Then I got to going to events and thought I needed to breed to big time studs. To Tell the truth now I hated everyone of those crosses cause the weren't worth a dam. I am back to breeding to the out behind the barn dogs and they are open and can flat out run a track and have real eyes in the tree when I get there. I am not saying all the big studs are bad but breed for traits in a dog not a title and we will be back where we it seem we all want to be.

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Posted by Reuben on 03-10-2019 01:35 AM:

Bones...before a dog is eligible for competition there should be a minimum standard a dog must meet to qualify for competition hunting...this way we can ensure that the dogs will improve just by meeting that standard...

So when the dog enters the competition the handler must show a certificate as proof that the dog meets the standard...

And the competition rules should be made so that the better dog wins more often than not...and the rules should be created in a way where the handler can’t win due to working the system in a way to win at any cost...IMO that just promotes inferior dogs because of this type of handling...and these dogs get titled and folks will breed to those pedigrees...

When folks figure out a loophole and then breeds the type of dog to win competitions rather than breeding the best possible hunting dog then we need to look at the rules and fix them so that only the best and real hunting dog can win day in and day out...If this were to happen better dogs would be a dime a dozen...maybe I am wrong but I don’t think so...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by Dogwhisper on 03-10-2019 04:02 AM:

Competition dogs and hunting(coon) dogs are two different animals......no need to fix the rules ....just keep breeding competition dogs and hunting dogs , side by side.
One goes to town and the other goes the the woods !

Posted by bones on 03-10-2019 03:19 PM:

Have to disagree up here we can blow the comp style dogs out of the water with just a simple old country coon dog. Some places we hunt are 3000 to 4000 acres with just one road or trail through, coon are thin. Those straight line blow through the woods dogs just are useless compared to a real dog that will actually hunt the woods around him. So two types really hurts the breeds rather than helps just my opinion

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Posted by bones on 03-10-2019 03:28 PM:

Reuben, I like your idea and is sort of what the hunt test are isn't it . We have had a few and there are a lot of dogs that have a hard time with them. We are planning on having more and it is actually opening up some eyes about their own dogs .

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Posted by davery on 03-11-2019 02:26 PM:

Track dogs

What I called a fast track dog is one that pulls hair off it prey on track that’s what I been breeding for forty years you got one let me no I’m interested

Posted by bones on 03-12-2019 12:27 AM:

got one but she is here to stay i am afraid .She can flat ass fly and it better climb or it ain't never again. lol

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Posted by davery on 03-12-2019 04:12 AM:

Dog

What breed of dog is it walker English black tan

Posted by Kler Kry on 03-12-2019 02:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Bones...before a dog is eligible for competition there should be a minimum standard a dog must meet to qualify for competition hunting...this way we can ensure that the dogs will improve just by meeting that standard...

So when the dog enters the competition the handler must show a certificate as proof that the dog meets the standard...

And the competition rules should be made so that the better dog wins more often than not...and the rules should be created in a way where the handler can’t win due to working the system in a way to win at any cost...IMO that just promotes inferior dogs because of this type of handling...and these dogs get titled and folks will breed to those pedigrees...

When folks figure out a loophole and then breeds the type of dog to win competitions rather than breeding the best possible hunting dog then we need to look at the rules and fix them so that only the best and real hunting dog can win day in and day out...If this were to happen better dogs would be a dime a dozen...maybe I am wrong but I don’t think so...

If there was a competition hunt that would identify which dog is the best it would give anyone wanting to buy a dog or raise pups a tremendous advantage. Back in the day when there was only one World Hunt the winner was probably a better representative of the best quality. What I've seen is recent years are just nice dogs of average ability that win by having a gimmick instead of dominating ability. Dogs that are fast track on feeder tracks are very scarce. If anyone has one that reproduces their likeness I'd like to come hunt with them. I remember back in time when no one would hunt with you if you had a slick treeing dog, babbler or an aggressive dog. Now a dog with faults are an advantage in the competition hunts. Ken Risley

Posted by Dogwhisper on 03-12-2019 02:47 PM:

No one really wants to know who has the "best dog" .
Their content to split the purse rather than go back out and find out !
I know when I wanted to go back out and find out I was the lone desenter.
I had no choice but to split!...that finial 4 cast should be
mandatory to hunt it off ! Bunch of sissy that my take .

The lane exist ...but handlers will lose $ when they get beat.
It's safer to split it.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-12-2019 03:33 PM:

When you go back out at 4 to 5 AM the luckiest dog usually wins, not the best. And comp hunters hunt for money or titles, not to see who has the best dog.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-12-2019 03:37 PM:

Is a "fast" track dog a "good" track dog? Can a dog be a "good" track dog and not be a "fast" track dog?

Posted by Dogwhisper on 03-12-2019 03:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
When you go back out at 4 to 5 AM the luckiest dog usually wins, not the best. And comp hunters hunt for money or titles, not to see who has the best dog.

.I don't go to any hunt with my fingers crossed,regardless the time , maybe u do but I don't !

Posted by yadkintar on 03-12-2019 03:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is a "fast" track dog a "good" track dog? Can a dog be a "good" track dog and not be a "fast" track dog?

Richard a dog that is always advancing on a bad track without mistakes can make a lot of other dogs look slow !! By time the unfocused dogs back track and run back and forth running ghost they are getting more mileage on their odometer tho lol.

Posted by bones on 03-13-2019 09:47 PM:

Davery she is English Oney Swamp Rooster and Wilcox bred

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Posted by joey on 03-14-2019 03:00 AM:

Desire to catch game makes a fast track dog. That's it. Grnch PKC ch Lookout Toby was the fastest dog I have ever seen. He would get so far ahead you questioned if they were running the same track. He got me scratched from Nch cast twice for treeing fox and that was after he had scored several hundred plus on each cast. I knew he was something when his first night in the woods at 4 months old he ran a deer out of hearing, his mother struck a working track to my left. Toby brought the deer back crossed the trail his mother was running, swapped tracks and treed it in front of her. You can breed for that kind of speed all you want but it just pops up now and again.

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Posted by Reuben on 03-14-2019 03:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Desire to catch game makes a fast track dog. That's it. Grnch PKC ch Lookout Toby was the fastest dog I have ever seen. He would get so far ahead you questioned if they were running the same track. He got me scratched from Nch cast twice for treeing fox and that was after he had scored several hundred plus on each cast. I knew he was something when his first night in the woods at 4 months old he ran a deer out of hearing, his mother struck a working track to my left. Toby brought the deer back crossed the trail his mother was running, swapped tracks and treed it in front of her. You can breed for that kind of speed all you want but it just pops up now and again.

Joey...the kind of dog your talking about is way out of what normal is...and you are right...when it is that far out of the normal it does not reproduce itself...it could be a coat color speed or super intelligence...

We can consistently produce above average with the right bloodlines...but not way out of the normalcies...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by joey on 03-14-2019 05:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Joey...the kind of dog your talking about is way out of what normal is...and you are right...when it is that far out of the normal it does not reproduce itself...it could be a coat color speed or super intelligence...

We can consistently produce above average with the right bloodlines...but not way out of the normalcies...

I agree, The male I have now consistently catches coon on the ground while screaming on a track, not sneaking up on them. 2 years ago on a out of state trip he ran a red fox for 30 min and caught him crossing a cut corn field. He has one pup. The pup strikes and trees ahead of him so it can be reproduced but nothing like Toby.

Posted by blueticker on 03-14-2019 06:59 AM:

How many of these top fast trackdogs have actually caught mature coon in waist high soybeans? If a hound that opens catches coon on a regular basis in canopied soybeans, then consider them a hard running track dog. It takes more than the sence of smell. Often the hound may be less than 10 feet from the coon. A smart hound figures out how to close on the prey.

Posted by yadkinriver on 03-14-2019 02:36 PM:

Joey and Reuben

I like and agree with both your post. After nearly 60 yrs of following tree dogs I spent nearly 35 yrs trying to reproduce the freaks. After I saw my first one I knew that was what I wanted. I produced a lot of fast dogs but reproducing the freak just didn't work. They popped up every once in a while but not consistantly. I had to keep in touch with the pup buyers and when I heard about the renagade that was out of control and more dog than the owner could handle I had to go check it out. Thats how I lucked into a couple as at weaning age it's hit or miss. You can't tell by looking at a pup but when you own one that when other dogs have their nose to the ground grubbing and this dog throws his head in the air and leaves out in a dead run and has the coon treed before the others can get it lined out thats when you have a truely outstanding hound.

Posted by joey on 03-14-2019 04:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
How many of these top fast trackdogs have actually caught mature coon in waist high soybeans? If a hound that opens catches coon on a regular basis in canopied soybeans, then consider them a hard running track dog. It takes more than the sence of smell. Often the hound may be less than 10 feet from the coon. A smart hound figures out how to close on the prey.

The one I had could and the one I have now does. A rice field race when it is headed out is harder on them and tougher to get a coon out than the beans are. It takes a dog in better shape in the beans though because they get so hot. The one I have now hasn't been in the rice much but the one I used to have was a expert at it. They cant see further than their nose in the rice and the water is splashing everywhere. When he was getting close to the coon you could shine your light and he would jump in the air and watch where the rice was moving I guess? I know he looked goofy out there jumping around like a idiot but you could turn him into a rice field race that other dogs had been running round and round for 30 min. He would have it caught or pushed to a tree in short order.

Tar, your right you cant consistently produce that kind of ability.

Posted by Kler Kry on 03-14-2019 04:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
How many of these top fast trackdogs have actually caught mature coon in waist high soybeans? If a hound that opens catches coon on a regular basis in canopied soybeans, then consider them a hard running track dog. It takes more than the sence of smell. Often the hound may be less than 10 feet from the coon. A smart hound figures out how to close on the prey.

Totally agree. The problem that I've observed over the years is that the owner of the Superior Dog cant find a dog of the opposite sex that is of the same level of ability. They have to breed them to a of lower ability that is usually unrelated and loose it in one cross.
Roy Jackson of Fort Scott, Ks. was able to reproduce dogs of superior ability by linebreeding his Mack Twain dogs. Jacksons dogs were the females side behind Houses Tom Tom. Also seen it reproduced by Bud Keller of Collins, Mo. with his Mike dog and in both cases it was the result of linebreeding/inbreeding. I believe that this highest level of ability is the result of doubling recessive traits. They have the ability to track and tree off body scent and do catch game in bean fields, tree tops and are accurate because they tree where the coon is and not where he was.
Some bloodlines are a deadend because there have never been any dogs in the bloodline of the highest ability, just a lot of nice dogs.

Posted by Reuben on 03-14-2019 05:23 PM:

Re: Joey and Reuben

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
I like and agree with both your post. After nearly 60 yrs of following tree dogs I spent nearly 35 yrs trying to reproduce the freaks. After I saw my first one I knew that was what I wanted. I produced a lot of fast dogs but reproducing the freak just didn't work. They popped up every once in a while but not consistantly. I had to keep in touch with the pup buyers and when I heard about the renagade that was out of control and more dog than the owner could handle I had to go check it out. Thats how I lucked into a couple as at weaning age it's hit or miss. You can't tell by looking at a pup but when you own one that when other dogs have their nose to the ground grubbing and this dog throws his head in the air and leaves out in a dead run and has the coon treed before the others can get it lined out thats when you have a truely outstanding hound.

The first time I took Yeller to the woods he might of been four months old but not older...I turned the dogs loose and they rolled out...my brother and I had walked about 100 yards and I remembered to look for Yeller and he wasn’t around
...my heart sank to my feet and I felt disappointment...I told my brother to hold up because I was going back to get Yeller...about that time We heard a splash and I shined my light and Yeller hit that slew with his head up high looking from side to side...he just ran on past us just a hunting...right then and their I felt an adrenaline rush I hadn’t felt in a long time before...that picture is still in my mind... I’ve bred some good ones but none like Yeller...

I learned that the best ones are cool, calm, and collected...until it is time to go to work...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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