UKC Forums - UKC's Striking Rule

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-- UKC's Striking Rule (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928515868)

Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 12:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
One babbling dog in a cast or at a hunt is one to many !

They are there you can either keep it like it is or make so there is no advantage for them where they still can compete without being scratched. The old rule of striking on or before the 3rd bark after the first turn loose will not work. In 1hr hunts there is a good possibility you will only turn loose once. Bearing your head in the sand and saying one babbling dog is to many is not a solution. Unless you prefer the elimination of hunts and hunting clubs.

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-23-2019 12:48 PM:

The babbling rule..allows blatant dishonesty within a set of "honor rules".....to me that's unacceptable, no matter how long it's been that way ..

Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 01:12 PM:

Re: Re: UKC's Striking Rule

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
My guess would be that UKC wanted to relieve their judges of having to make a call that they knew was going to start a serious, extremely unpleasant and sometimes bloody argument every single time they enforced the rule. So they made a change that gave their judges a way out without completely eliminating the rule against babbling.

UKC went to the 1 minute rule because the breed Assoc. voted it in. But a tree count down still has not been accepted by the breed Assoc. and most of the time you hear the excuse that if you want a count down go over to another kennel club and have your count down. My question is you never hear them say that about the 1 minute rule or the stationary treeing rule which were both pasted by the Assoc's. which came from another kennel club. Why would they pass the 2 worse rules ever implemented by another kennel club but fight a rule that really does work and is a good thing for fast tracking dogs and dogs that do there own thing??

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Posted by Sonny Phipps on 02-23-2019 01:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by berger
If those dogs are still in that open field in the minute they have a lot bigger problem then babbling!!!!!!!

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Posted by yadkintar on 02-23-2019 01:26 PM:

Let's put it in perspective ! You cut 4 dogs and they babble leaving your are not awarding the dog that struck first ! You are awarding the first human being strike for striking his dog and neither one are smelling a coon.

Tar

Posted by River Birch Run on 02-23-2019 01:26 PM:

i'm sick and tired of making rules that screw over an honest dog. I won't own a dog unless it's a 1st or second honest strike dog. Yes they can be honest and fast. All this rule would do is give the slow strike dogs a chance to beat a far better dog. And still don't do ANYTHING to the babbler. If you live in OH, MI, IN, PA your going to be struck in the 1st 30 sec more often then not.

So say were hunting at AO. I draw out a good cast with a good guide. We are slamming tree after tree. We see and score on 4 coon out of 6 trees made. But because we are struck off the tailgate each time our CW is 600+. Another cast has avg. dogs that take 5 min to get struck in thick coon and takes 20 min to work a good track. They score on 4 coon and come in with 900+. How is that fair? Think about placing at zones do you want to get bounced out of placing because you have a fast strike dog????

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-23-2019 01:34 PM:

Scratching the babbling handler/dog already xist ....it's just to lenient of a rule .
The babbler get a second chance . How ignorant is that ?
Scratch on the 1 offence !

Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 01:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
The babbling rule..allows blatant dishonesty within a set of "honor rules".....to me that's unacceptable, no matter how long it's been that way ..

But you like the $hunts which promotes the babblers. LOL

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 01:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run
i'm sick and tired of making rules that screw over an honest dog. I won't own a dog unless it's a 1st or second honest strike dog. Yes they can be honest and fast. All this rule would do is give the slow strike dogs a chance to beat a far better dog. And still don't do ANYTHING to the babbler. If you live in OH, MI, IN, PA your going to be struck in the 1st 30 sec more often then not.

So say were hunting at AO. I draw out a good cast with a good guide. We are slamming tree after tree. We see and score on 4 coon out of 6 trees made. But because we are struck off the tailgate each time our CW is 600+. Another cast has avg. dogs that take 5 min to get struck in thick coon and takes 20 min to work a good track. They score on 4 coon and come in with 900+. How is that fair? Think about placing at zones do you want to get bounced out of placing because you have a fast strike dog????

If you are striking every time off the tailgate and only score on 4 coon you have a dog problem not a rule problem.

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-23-2019 02:15 PM:

Berger , personal attacks ought not have a place when a debate is happening . Things tend to go sideways with no advancements.
Your bigger than that I would hope.

Posted by MR.RATMAN on 02-23-2019 02:44 PM:

I for 1 see it more in UKC because judges let it happen. $$ hunts they minus you and most dogs are deep and lonely not babbling.

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 02:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dogwhisper
Berger , personal attacks ought not have a place when a debate is happening . Things tend to go sideways with no advancements.
Your bigger than that I would hope.

That was not a personal attack. If you took it that way then you need to reread all the post's. When you attack a babbling rule in UKC saying it is to lenient should be scratched on the 1st offence instead of 2nd but prefer a kennel club that doesn't scratch at all for babbling that is very noteworthy to the discussion since you have bashed the UKC babbling rule through this whole discussion. Are you serious or just trying to bash UKC and it's rules.

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Posted by Dogwhisper on 02-23-2019 03:01 PM:

Well I guess not !

Posted by ov_blues on 02-23-2019 03:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by berger
What is that strike rule??????

AKC's strike rule is that any strike within the first minute has to be immediately followed by a tree call or you can't strike in at all during the first minute.

At the end of the first minute if only one dog is opening the dogs are recorded as struck in at 100, 75, 50 & 25. At the end of the first minute if multiple dogs are opening they all go on the card at 50 strike points. If all dogs in the cast are not opening to go in for 50, any dogs not struck in at the end of the minute will go on the card for 25 after the first minute.

They also have a tree count down which has the ability to widen scores as the hunt progresses so the emphasis is on which dog is treeing coon the fastest. They also don't have a leash lock rule so there again the emphasis is on who's dog can tree the most coon in the fastest manner and not geared toward which dog can open it's mouth the fastest.

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Posted by Mike Mckinney on 02-23-2019 03:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
AKC's strike rule is that any strike within the first minute has to be immediately followed by a tree call or you can't strike in at all during the first minute.

At the end of the first minute if multiple dogs are opening they all go on the card at 50 strike points. If all dogs in the cast are not opening to go in for 50, any dogs not struck in at the end of the minute will go on the card for 25 after the first minute.

They also have a tree count down which has the ability to widen scores as the hunt progresses so the emphasis is on which dog is treeing coon the fastest. They also don't have a leash lock rule so there again the emphasis is on who's dog can tree the most coon in the fastest manner and not geared toward which dog can open it's mouth the fastest.

sounds as fair as it can be!!

Posted by Stan Ferrell on 02-23-2019 05:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
AKC's strike rule is that any strike within the first minute has to be immediately followed by a tree call or you can't strike in at all during the first minute.

At the end of the first minute if only one dog is opening the dogs are recorded as struck in at 100, 75, 50 & 25. At the end of the first minute if multiple dogs are opening they all go on the card at 50 strike points. If all dogs in the cast are not opening to go in for 50, any dogs not struck in at the end of the minute will go on the card for 25 after the first minute.

They also have a tree count down which has the ability to widen scores as the hunt progresses so the emphasis is on which dog is treeing coon the fastest. They also don't have a leash lock rule so there again the emphasis is on who's dog can tree the most coon in the fastest manner and not geared toward which dog can open it's mouth the fastest.

Now all you need is a couple extra stop watches, a secretary and a handler to call your dog.

Posted by ov_blues on 02-23-2019 05:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Stan Ferrell
Now all you need is a couple extra stop watches, a secretary and a handler to call your dog.

It's actually the least complicated and the least argumentative way of handling things in my opinion.

UKC you are keeping the minute clock the same as AKC's rule but just recording strike points differently and not having to argue over whether a dog is babbling or not.

UKC you are keeping a 5 minute clock on the tree just as you are in AKC, just recording less tree points as the time runs down on the 5 minutes.

Recasting in UKC it is handler's option according to what the handler wants to do according to what the other dogs are doing. AKC it's simple, just recut the dog unless trees are scored out of order.

It's a lot less complicated and scores the dogs better on treeing coon in my opinion.

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2019 07:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
AKC's strike rule is that any strike within the first minute has to be immediately followed by a tree call or you can't strike in at all during the first minute.

At the end of the first minute if only one dog is opening the dogs are recorded as struck in at 100, 75, 50 & 25. At the end of the first minute if multiple dogs are opening they all go on the card at 50 strike points. If all dogs in the cast are not opening to go in for 50, any dogs not struck in at the end of the minute will go on the card for 25 after the first minute.

Now this seems simplified and a lot easier to judge then the way the strike is setup in UKC now. I would even go for 30 seconds instead of a minute.

This is why I like debates out on a forum, you can get some real ideas that should work. I do like how some come up with scenarios of how it would be unfair and try and tilt it to extremes.

I always thought it would be nice to give any dog/dogs 25points if they bark when cut loose and all other dogs would be eligible for 100 75 50 but was afraid it would get to confusing to some.

Guys you got till the end of the month to contact your breed rep...

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Posted by ClayBottom11 on 02-23-2019 11:52 PM:

Just my opinion, but the biggest issue here is with judges not using their authority as they should. I know it can be uncomfortable but sometimes you need to accept that somebody might be confrontational and make the right call regardless. I�ve been on plenty of casts where a dog should�ve been minused or scratched and the good ol� boy system takes over and the right (rule) call is ignored. I bet if more casts members who have the card would make calls by the rule, not just including babbling, you�d see some of this stuff straightened out. It may not be as big of an issue with the bigger hunts, but it happens more than it should at the local level. As far as the $KC rules... you�ve already lost me when you can win a hunt without treeing a real live raccoon.

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Posted by houseofquality on 02-24-2019 12:25 AM:

Who's the black and tan representative

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Posted by houseofquality on 02-24-2019 12:25 AM:

Who's the black and tan representative

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Posted by Kenneth Tavares on 02-24-2019 02:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
AKC's strike rule is that any strike within the first minute has to be immediately followed by a tree call or you can't strike in at all during the first minute.

At the end of the first minute if only one dog is opening the dogs are recorded as struck in at 100, 75, 50 & 25. At the end of the first minute if multiple dogs are opening they all go on the card at 50 strike points. If all dogs in the cast are not opening to go in for 50, any dogs not struck in at the end of the minute will go on the card for 25 after the first minute.

They also have a tree count down which has the ability to widen scores as the hunt progresses so the emphasis is on which dog is treeing coon the fastest. They also don't have a leash lock rule so there again the emphasis is on who's dog can tree the most coon in the fastest manner and not geared toward which dog can open it's mouth the fastest.

Unless they have changed it, you are not completely correct.

Any dog(even if only one) barking at the end of the minute will be struck for 50. All others for 25. If nothing is opening at the end of the minute the strike is open and starts at 100.

It�s the best solution I�ve heard besides just minus the sorry sucks!

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Tone it down guys, or they will delete another good topic...

Posted by berger on 02-24-2019 03:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth Tavares
Unless they have changed it, you are not completely correct.

Any dog(even if only one) barking at the end of the minute will be struck for 50. All others for 25. If nothing is opening at the end of the minute the strike is open and starts at 100.

It�s the best solution I�ve heard besides just minus the sorry sucks!

And I even like that better.

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Posted by berger on 02-24-2019 03:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by houseofquality
Who's the black and tan representative

Chad Smith

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Posted by ov_blues on 02-24-2019 04:14 AM:

Kenneth, you are right. I was going off memory.

Judge to acknowledge Handler�s call by repeating the dog�s name and number of points for which dog is called. Points will be split when called positions cannot be clearly determined by Judge.
A. Strike Points
1. One set of strike points as follows: 100 points
for dog declared struck first; 75 points second; 50 points third and 25 points fourth. All dogs must be loose and competing in order for first strike of 100 points to be awarded. If dog(s) are re-struck after being scored plus, minus, circle or deleted they may only be struck back in for 25 points unless all dogs are competing for 100 strike points.
2. One (1) minute time to be kept each time dog(s) are released. No dog to receive strike points dur- ing that minute unless immediately followed by a tree call. Fifty (50) strike points will be recorded for dog(s) barking within the last five seconds of the minute. Remaining dogs, when struck receive 25 points. This rule will only be in effect when all dogs are loose and competing for 100 strike points. The judge will count aloud the last five seconds of the minute and announce, �minute is up,� and will indicate which dogs are struck and recorded for 50 strike points if any.

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