UKC Forums - Adviser vs. rule book

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- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Adviser vs. rule book (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928510883)

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 03:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
and now another big one open to major controversies not having to see it to scratch it. August 2018 a dog can be scratched for fighting or off game even if no one has seen it because all these judges should be so "honorable".

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I had to read this one twice ! Now i'm going to have to wait to get home to look in mag to see more details on this one .
This is ABSURD !!!!!

How in the world could a "judge" prove either of these ?

This is nothing new. It's been this way ever since I attended my first UKC nite hunt. It's not about proving anything. It's a common sense call based on common sense. Best way to I can put it.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-23-2018 04:24 PM:

Oh my goodness, there is that "common sense rule" popping back up. I can't find it anywhere in my rulebook. It must be in the advisor. Does anyone know what page it is on?

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 04:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
This is nothing new. It's been this way ever since I attended my first UKC nite hunt. It's not about proving anything. It's a common sense call based on common sense. Best way to I can put it.

First off I find it HILARIOUS that you would know my dog better than i so lets just say this....
If my dog was "possibly" running junk and you "thought" it was and you scratched me to get an advantage cause im putting it on you and you are wanting to eliminate me and then a few minutes later my dog gets treed . Then What ?

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-23-2018 04:41 PM:

Advisor

Personally I hate the advisor and feel like its as reliable as this forum for information. For instance Jennifer and I were arguing the fact you cant hunt a dog on puppy papers (which I found in the advisor back in 2016) then she pulls up the updated one and shows me that rule was revised and now you can as long as you get the papers sent in... it was very misleading in that instance and if it was a MOH kind of question I would have fought it until I was blue in the face or until documentation was supplied to me. Shawn sometimes earns his MOH wages when it comes to Lost Creek Kennel Club!

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 04:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Toad Hill
First off I find it HILARIOUS that you would know my dog better than i so lets just say this....
If my dog was "possibly" running junk and you "thought" it was and you scratched me to get an advantage cause im putting it on you and you are wanting to eliminate me and then a few minutes later my dog gets treed . Then What ?

I shouldn't be judging if I'm using my authority as the judge to eliminate your dog.

I've been hunting dogs for a long time and have had many situations where I thought there's a good possibility that the dogs were running fast game but couldn't/didn't make the call. There's also been occasions when it was painfully obvious and there was no question. When there's no question, is when you should make the call. That's what I meant by suggesting common sense.

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-23-2018 05:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I shouldn't be judging if I'm using my authority as the judge to eliminate your dog.

I've been hunting dogs for a long time and have had many situations where I thought there's a good possibility that the dogs were running fast game but couldn't/didn't make the call. There's also been occasions when it was painfully obvious and there was no question. When there's no question, is when you should make the call. That's what I meant by suggesting common sense.

I agree with THAT but the both of us know thats not how it goes these days Neither of us fell out of a tree and bumped our heads.

OK OK Ok Ok ...Take the advantage part outta my question and answer it.
If my dog was "possibly" running junk and you "thought" it was and you scratched me and then a few minutes later my dog gets treed . Then What ? You gonna remove the scratch ?

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 05:37 PM:

Haha.....

How about we flip roles and you tell me how you would rule on my dog that you are, without conviction, fully convinced is running fast game out of the country but then eventually falls off and trees a coon. That can and does happen, right or wrong?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-23-2018 05:40 PM:

I have seen a lot of dogs that run trash and then switch over to a coon and get treed. Usually it is pretty obvious when they do. Do you have to see the deer that your dog is running before you shock him? It is the same way with a dog fight. Do you have to see the dogs fighting to know that there was a dog fight?

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 05:45 PM:

Toadhill, we can debate and agree or not agree on various topics. When I say that, I hope you're not taking it to be offensive or criticizing your opinion, as that's not the intent at all. I love a good rule discussion.

There's a rule change year coming up next year. If this is one you'd like to see the criteria change when it comes to scratching dogs for running fast game or fighting, then propose a good change.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rules were so perfect that everyone agreed with every one of them and no one would have any reason to debate them?

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 05:46 PM:

Hey ,hey y'all red dog guys settle down ! Believe it or not there are dogs that can run a coon fast enough to make you think it's a deer.

It's called a treeing walker you know the ones that are winning all the major hunts lol.

Tar

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 05:48 PM:

Holy cow..... we must be getting out of line bad for Tar to have to step in.

Slow day on the front lines.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 05:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I shouldn't be judging if I'm using my authority as the judge to eliminate your dog.

I've been hunting dogs for a long time and have had many situations where I thought there's a good possibility that the dogs were running fast game but couldn't/didn't make the call. There's also been occasions when it was painfully obvious and there was no question. When there's no question, is when you should make the call. That's what I meant by suggesting common sense.

There are many very good honest judges in this sport but there are also to many unscrupulous judges and cast members to have a rule like this. Also, as Toad Hill mentioned the knowing of how a dog runs a track when they have never hunted with a dog and are now judging on what they "think" a dog is doing. Example, there is a dog in the cast that can flat out fly on the ground, he must be running a deer no other dog in the cast is moving like that he is scratched a short time later the dog trees with a coon. Even if this judge honestly thought the dog was running a deer it wasn't or what if you drew the cast of unscrupulous handlers and your dog was beating the pants off them it's to tempting of a way to eliminate competition. Put it on the flip side and have an exceptional slow track dog who beats and bangs around on a track it could be said he is cold trailing a coyote and it could be scratched.
You mention that judges judge what they cannot see throughout the rest of the cast. Judges take strike and tree calls based on hearing a dog bark when the dog is moving and tree calls when it is stationary. Neither are difficult or require any interpretation by the judge it is just moving or not. And also not scratchable.
This decision to allow a non-hunting judge or judge and cast members whether honest or not the the ability to scratch their competition is a bad move. It should be policy to allow all dogs to compete for the entire hunt unless their is zero doubt that a dog or handler needs scratched leaving decisions up to things you cannot see nor accurately judge is leaves to much leeway for error of judgement or the bad apples to take advantage of a rule.

__________________
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Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 06:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Holy cow..... we must be getting out of line bad for Tar to have to step in.

Slow day on the front lines.

Slow here too!! Doing laundry eating frozen burritos lol. Sure be glad when it starts getting dark at 6:00. Tired of fishing lol.

Tar

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-23-2018 06:01 PM:

But on the other hand if you have to "see it" to minus a dog, they can run deer all night or fight and run dogs off from every tree all night and never get scratched. There is good and bad in every rule. That is why there are so many arguements about them. Sometimes you just have to take the bad with the good.

An unscrupulous judge can take advantage of any rule. What if you tree your dog and the judge says that he thinks he moved and minuses him. Should we do away with that rule or change it to say that you have to see them move? Comp coonhunting sure is complicated.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-23-2018 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
....Doing laundry eating frozen burritos......
Tar [/B]

Now that is a visual that I can do without. Are you washing the dishes in between loads?

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 06:16 PM:

I'm also going to add what about the definition of attempting to fight how can that be judged from afar? Per UKC Rulebook... Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior AND (NOTICE IT DOESN'T SAY OR) 2) Interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of the judge.
How can one judge whether interference with a dog or dogs has taken place when you are not in a place to see what is happening? Isn't this one of the reasons that a judge can be at the tree within the 5 minutes?
One more thing while I'm on this rules thing... 18 Definitions Babbling: When a dog opens three times or has been struck where no track is evident. Shouldn't this definition just be opening where no track is evident, or replace the OR with AND. According to the current definition any time a dog barks more than three times it is babbling.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 06:17 PM:

The majority of judging a nite hunt requires using your ears and good judgement. Can all agree on that one?

Posted by yadkintar on 10-23-2018 06:18 PM:

Yep.......... Mowed the grass yesterday crap won't quit growing lol. Recording Mrs tars soap oprees lol. It gets dark I am outa here !!

Tar

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-23-2018 06:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
I'm also going to add what about the definition of attempting to fight how can that be judged from afar? Per UKC Rulebook... Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior AND (NOTICE IT DOESN'T SAY OR) 2) Interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of the judge.
How can one judge whether interference with a dog or dogs has taken place when you are not in a place to see what is happening? Isn't this one of the reasons that a judge can be at the tree within the 5 minutes?
One more thing while I'm on this rules thing... 18 Definitions Babbling: When a dog opens three times or has been struck where no track is evident. Shouldn't this definition just be opening where no track is evident, or replace the OR with AND. According to the current definition any time a dog barks more than three times it is babbling.

Lordy she's on a role today! Should I ask how long can I lead/not lead my dog away from a tree before turning it loose?

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 06:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
But on the other hand if you have to "see it" to minus a dog, they can run deer all night or fight and run dogs off from every tree all night and never get scratched. There is good and bad in every rule. That is why there are so many arguements about them. Sometimes you just have to take the bad with the good.

An unscrupulous judge can take advantage of any rule. What if you tree your dog and the judge says that he thinks he moved and minuses him. Should we do away with that rule or change it to say that you have to see them move? Comp coonhunting sure is complicated.

Richard, I wouldn't worry about a dog that runs all night. As for the running dogs off trees, who is the aggressor, which dog was interfered with? Scratching a dog is a big thing and shouldn't be taken lightly or allowed without evidence. Funny how a judge/cast can scratch a dog for something they may suspect but circle it up when it comes in late and blows up on a possum tree after the judge has arrived lol.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 06:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Lordy she's on a role today! Should I ask how long can I lead/not lead my dog away from a tree before turning it loose?

Tyler, don't you start now!

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Lordy she's on a role today! Should I ask how long can I lead/not lead my dog away from a tree before turning it loose?

Write it up and I will see that it gets to the proper authorities, notice I said it plural not just one.

Posted by TylerOSU on 10-23-2018 06:35 PM:

LOL

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Tyler, don't you start now!

Sorry Alan I know you don't have anything better to do then get given a hard time! We are kind of hard headed down here in the 4 state area if you couldn't tell and Jen heads that up!

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-23-2018 06:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Lordy she's on a role today! Should I ask how long can I lead/not lead my dog away from a tree before turning it loose?

Yes sir!
Now last but not least does anyone have the answer yet as to 4(e) and it being in the rules? Rule 7. TIME OUTS no longer containing moving to new hunt ground because you want to. And all reasons to call time out under Rule 7 refered to Rule 5(f) deleted strike points what is the purpose of rule 4(e) minusing strike points for calling dogs off trail.
Does Rule 4(e) need taken off the card? Or would hunters like the option again of using 4(e) by adding to Rule 7 Time Outs the option to call dogs off trail to go to new hunting ground with a reference to Rule 4(e). This would also need an exception from Rule 5(e) deleted strike from time outs.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-23-2018 06:56 PM:

Re: LOL

quote:
Originally posted by TylerOSU
Sorry Alan I know you don't have anything better to do then get given a hard time! We are kind of hard headed down here in the 4 state area if you couldn't tell and Jen heads that up!

Haha. I expect some good proposals coming from your neck of the woods next year. Run them by Tar first, he's a hard-head too. lol.

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