UKC Forums - How would you score?

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Posted by sleepy head on 07-11-2018 07:50 PM:

They haven't babbled all night. 40 seconds after being cut loose they are struck, 1 minute and 20 seconds later they open again and get minused? And it's unsportsmanlike to strike a dog before the minute. I dont get it

Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 07:51 PM:

Mine go 200 yrds looking for a good place to take a dookie just sayen.

Tar

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 07:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
They haven't babbled all night. 40 seconds after being cut loose they are struck, 1 minute and 20 seconds later they open again and get minused? And it's unsportsmanlike to strike a dog before the minute. I dont get it

40 seconds they were struck both on 2 barks. Then a minute went by I stated they needed to show a track or be minused. Another minute went by( totalling 2 minutes after struck in) they opened up with mine who was legit struck and I got 50.

That is a babble. No track was evident and if there was they sure did a poor job proving otherwise. A guy made a statement on another post saying how can I smell a coon track and prove there isn't one? Well let me tell you it's not my job to prove there is a track that's what the dog is supposed to do.

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Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 08:03 PM:

Well if they only used two they had six minutes to spare jmo. Here is the deal when I said I would sneak into a tree to catch an aggressive dog ukc made it plain to me as a hunting judge you get to write down scores listen to your dog and everybody else's and you get a vote if you are out voted tuff you have no recourse on something the moh can't see jmo.

Tar

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-11-2018 09:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Well if they only used two they had six minutes to spare jmo. Here is the deal when I said I would sneak into a tree to catch an aggressive dog ukc made it plain to me as a hunting judge you get to write down scores listen to your dog and everybody else's and you get a vote if you are out voted tuff you have no recourse on something the moh can't see jmo.

Tar

Posted by yadkintar on 07-11-2018 10:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1

I know I don't like it !! Guess we gonna have to start carrying sweet n low in our pocket lol !!

Tar

Posted by Pat Bizich on 07-11-2018 10:59 PM:

The babbling rule needs to be eliminated.
Other rules are cut and dry.
Whether a dog is babbling is too much an opinionated call.
It is too prone to every individual judges interpretation of what they believe to be babbling that carries the score card from weekend to weekend.
I don't care how many years experience you have or believe yourself to be qualified to be able to think you absolutely know the difference.
IT IS AN IMPOSSIBLE TO CALL CERTAINTY 100 % .
It is not based on any ones qualified ability to factually determine if a dog is indeed babbling or whether the dog in question is just plain out nosing the other dogs. Or is an outstanding winding dog that the other dogs won't open. YES, not even when you see one running with their nose up opening every breath.
I personally witnessed over the years …

dogs with the ability that run with their noses in the air that were absolutely running air current scent not track scent.

dogs that open immediately upon getting scent ,shut up and reopen once they get the track lined out.

dogs that had way better noses then the average and would run the track a few hundred yards or so with the other hotter nosed dogs tagging along until there was enough scent for them to open.

I currently have a dog that has been accused time after time that she babbles.I have been made to turn loose in barren fields more than once to prove otherwise.
She will run tracks 200 yards or more at times before other dogs open with her or never do and at times gets treed with seasoned dogs at the base of a tree acting like stupid green pups.SHE WILL MAKE YOU A BELIEVER on nights you don't think a coon is stirring by getting treed with a coon.

I ask ,how can anyone that has never hunted with a dog know on the first turn out or subsequent ones unless it has indeed exhibited behavior relevant to possible babbling that any dog is absolutely babbling?You don't know my dog.

There are certain give away like a dog that barks all the way to the woods, the whole time they are being unloaded and released,etc.
Beyond that like the above question posed by Trevor. It was stated they never did it on any prior turn outs. I never would have even considered them babbling based on the info provided.

Why is every one so preoccupied about a babbling dog?Are you afraid of them beating you? The rules favor the tree dogs.
We hunt hounds not curs. I want my dog to have a good nose and open quickly.I don't want a lot of the hot nosed stuff being produced. And because guys are hunting dogs that can't smell or keep up to the dogs with good noses they get labeled babblers.
I ask is it okay to minus the innocent as long as we catch a few that are guilty.I think conversely it best be said " better a few guilty go free than to minus the innocent."

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Posted by joey on 07-11-2018 11:33 PM:

Pat, they do not favor the tree dog over a babbler. 100+75 beats 25+125 all day.

You are right, there are a few dogs that will do what you mentioned and can be accused of babbling, but there are more of them that are actually babbling and their owners think they have a cold nose. We do not have to be 100% to minus a dog. That's why the cast gets to vote on it. As a judge they are asking for my judgment of what a dog is doing. I could be wrong and if I am then call for a vote

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Posted by Doug Terrell on 07-11-2018 11:36 PM:

You say it was towards the end of the hunt
Let me ask what was the scores at that time of each dog ?
Just curious.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 07-12-2018 01:12 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug Terrell
You say it was towards the end of the hunt
Let me ask what was the scores at that time of each dog ?
Just curious.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 07-12-2018 01:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug Terrell
You say it was towards the end of the hunt
Let me ask what was the scores at that time of each dog ?
Just curious.

Posted by Rip on 07-12-2018 01:45 AM:

If you wouldn't have minused after the minute in the exact same situation then you shouldn't minus in the minute. The minute has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Were they babbling or were they drifting a track? Can't tell without being there.

I can tell you as a judge I have minused dogs for babbling way after the minute was up.

If at any time I feel they are babbling I am minusing them.

But if I don't think they are babbling then they won't get minused in the first second either.

I agree it's a tough call, but it is a call that needs to be made.

I for one have always felt it would be much easier without the minute. We didn't have near the babblers with the old rule that we do now. The minute just makes it harder to get the babblers.

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 07-12-2018 02:56 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Pat, they do not favor the tree dog over a babbler. 100+75 beats 25+125 all day.

You are right, there are a few dogs that will do what you mentioned and can be accused of babbling, but there are more of them that are actually babbling and their owners think they have a cold nose. We do not have to be 100% to minus a dog. That's why the cast gets to vote on it. As a judge they are asking for my judgment of what a dog is doing. I could be wrong and if I am then call for a vote

Joey,You know what I mean.125 for first tree dog .Money hunts are 100/100 but got the count down.If I am not getting first strike all night you will beat me with the first tree dog.
Also if you are not 100% sure my dog is babbling why for heavens sake would you want to minus my dog .You just proved my argument.You are guessing.
Few years ago there was a guy posted about how he had a consistent cast winner,Could not get the elusive 1st place.Could not figure it out.
I replied he needed to be getting in on more strikes . I like first and second type dogs on strikes and trees. And Mentioned this.On another cast I would beat the last strike first tree dog cast winner.

Man did I get slammed. How most guys replying would take an all night first tree dog over one that gets their share of both 1st,2nd strike/1st,2nd tree all night long .
What ever floats your boat. Dogs of this type I have had over years done their share of winning in hunts. I like what I got and hunt . Did I say I can't stand hot nosed dogs!!Like they say. Only one they got to please is me.

Posted by JiM on 07-12-2018 03:13 AM:

Thet should E.

They shoulf adopt AKcs srike rule. Far and away the best. It promotes honesty and. fairness. Its the best.

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Posted by JiM on 07-12-2018 03:13 AM:

Thet should E.

They shoulf adopt AKcs srike rule. Far and away the best. It promotes honesty and. fairness. Its the best.

Posted by MOX on 07-12-2018 03:48 AM:

Based on what I've experienced in UKC hunts over the years these dogs shouldn't have gotten minus and no matter weather it makes you mad or not sounds really convenient for you to make this call. Now other KC's would have probably minus theses dogs.

Posted by honalieh on 07-12-2018 05:02 AM:

Babbling???

I would hardly consider this to be babbling. Barking once or twice when they hit a track, then drifting out is not babbling. I've seen babblers. They will strike when cut loose, and keep on opening until they hit a track.

The dog I'm hunting now will bark once or twice when she hits a track. Then she drifts out. Next bark may be 200-300 yards away, or it may be a tree bark. I consider her semi-silent, certainly not a babbler.

Several years ago (1993-2007) I had a female that would open once, and only once, on track. She would open one bark when she hit the track. Her second bark would be treed. I considered her to be silent. It seems that you'd call her a babbler.

What your score is, and what another dogs score is, is not a determining factor in whether or not a dog is babbling. The babbling dogs I've seen don't cover that much distance between barks. Most of the more accurate hounds I've seen DO cover distance between barks!

Posted by MOX on 07-12-2018 09:54 AM:

honalieh (I would hardly consider this to be babbling. Barking once or twice when they hit a track, then drifting out is not babbling. I've seen babblers. They will strike when cut loose, and keep on opening until they hit a track.)

Could not agree more! If anything the babbling rule in many organizations has had a negative affect on our competition hounds. I see more counterfeit strike dogs that open there mouth when you turn them loose and keep it open till they or another dog actually does strike a real track or tree than I do good honest strike dogs.

Posted by T Felderman on 07-12-2018 02:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Thet should E.

They shoulf adopt AKcs srike rule. Far and away the best. It promotes honesty and. fairness. Its the best.

Posted by damon shivers on 07-12-2018 02:27 PM:

Dogs

One of mine doesn't babble but only barks maybe 5-10 time on a whole track and that's a long one. That being said if he bark I'm striking him because might be my only chance.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-12-2018 03:53 PM:

Re: Dogs

quote:
Originally posted by damon shivers
One of mine doesn't babble but only barks maybe 5-10 time on a whole track and that's a long one. That being said if he bark I'm striking him because might be my only chance.

And you are entitled to do that Damon. But I wouldn't suggest doing it right off the bat knowing your hound may not open again for a good ways.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 07-12-2018 03:59 PM:

Re: Babbling???

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
I would hardly consider this to be babbling. Barking once or twice when they hit a track, then drifting out is not babbling.

If they are struck in right off they better not be drifting out to far without proving that initial track or they will be minused by just about any knowledgeable judge.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 07-12-2018 04:11 PM:

I guess that I am not a very knowledgeable judge. Babbling to me is "loose barking". One or 2 barks when a dog smells something is not babbling. The rule doesn't say anything about "carrying a track out" or how many times they have to bark on a track or how much distance they can cover between barks. It also doesn't say that they can't open on a track, quit that track and go deeper and start another track.
Handlers/judges with 4th strike dogs are making all of that up to minus a dog that opens as soon as it smells something.

Posted by yadkintar on 07-12-2018 04:26 PM:

I just don't sweat the small stuff babbling dogs are high strung most of the time high strung dogs make mistakes let um babble I will get them later for something else lol. If you watch the play by plays of the big hunts you will see how my theory plays out they get minus that cost them hunts jmo.

Tar

Posted by Pat Bizich on 07-12-2018 04:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Pat Bizich
The babbling rule needs to be eliminated.
Other rules are cut and dry.
Whether a dog is babbling is too much an opinionated call.
It is too prone to every individual judges interpretation of what they believe to be babbling that carries the score card from weekend to weekend.
I don't care how many years experience you have or believe yourself to be qualified to be able to think you absolutely know the difference.
I ask is it okay to minus the innocent as long as we catch a few that are guilty.I think conversely it best be said " better a few guilty go free than to minus the innocent."

Just read all the varying "OPINIONS " that they feel constitute babbling .I rest my case.

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