UKC Forums - Poll Scenario-Allen

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-- Poll Scenario-Allen (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928505436)

Posted by Rip on 06-16-2018 03:42 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I always thought that judge was in charge and no one could handle their dog until the judge told them to. When you go in to a tree, can you handle your dog before the judge tells you to even though the rule says dogs at the tree must be handled?

Absolutely, the judge does not have to give the order to handle the dogs because the rule doesn't leave room for that, it says they MUST be leashed, not if the judge tells you to.

BUT the judge is supposed to be the first at the tree so he can see which dogs are treeing so there is no need for him to have to tell you to leash them he should already have the dogs in his mind that are showing treed before you get your hands on your dog.

If the rule wasn't worded the way it is then it would be different, but when it uses concrete language like "MUST" or "WILL" or "SHALL" there is no leeway if the dog is there it has to be leashed no matter what it is or isn't doing.

Because of that there is no need for the judge to say leash them, you are supposed to do that. I know that's not the way "people do it" and I always tell them to leash them too but that is just to let them know it's OK. I wouldn't scratch anyone for leashing a dog that is at the tree because they MUST do it according to the rules.

Now if you beat the judge to the tree and leash the dog you would have problems because then the judge wasn't afforded the opportunity to see which dogs were showing treed, but it wouldn't be for leashing the dog it would be for not allowing the judge to be the first one at the tree to judge the dog.

If the judge is there and the dog is there it has to go on a leash.

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Posted by joey on 06-16-2018 04:22 AM:

I'm going to disagree with you Rip. I know the point you are making but the dogs have to be treed to the satisfaction of the judge. In some instances you can not see all the dogs from one side. By giving the order to handle the dog he is letting you know he is satisfied. I also would not have anyone handling one walking into the tree. We have already established that a handler standing off by himself shining is at the tree. So the dog is to be handled but the judge needs to give the order. Or else you could have handlers running dogs down when know one can see them. The "must" part of the rule just means the judge can not let a dog wonder around the tree without being handled, it doesn't mean a handler can handle the dog without permission from the judge.

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Posted by Rip on 06-17-2018 01:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I'm going to disagree with you Rip. I know the point you are making but the dogs have to be treed to the satisfaction of the judge. In some instances you can not see all the dogs from one side. By giving the order to handle the dog he is letting you know he is satisfied. I also would not have anyone handling one walking into the tree. We have already established that a handler standing off by himself shining is at the tree. So the dog is to be handled but the judge needs to give the order. Or else you could have handlers running dogs down when know one can see them. The "must" part of the rule just means the judge can not let a dog wonder around the tree without being handled, it doesn't mean a handler can handle the dog without permission from the judge.

No, according to the wording, MUST is MUST. That is a concrete word, not "may" but must. There is no exception. I think the last time it was discussed it was stated that was why the judge was to get there first was to see which dogs were there but they were all to be handled immediately.

Notice Allen said the one standing there shining the tree should have handled the dog. He didn't say because he was the judge he could handle it without asking the judge, he just should have handled the dog because he came in to the tree and the dog must be leashed.

Now I can't remember the last time it came up if they said the judge could ask you to wait to handle your dog, I remember that being discussed as well, but dogs at the tree there is no choice and no alternative they must by rule be handled.

While I agree with you that it could cause problems that's just the way the rule is worded.

But if the judge gets there first then there shouldn't be any problem it's not hard to see which dogs are there or not, by the time they get them handled you know.

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Posted by joey on 06-17-2018 03:34 AM:

I agree the dogs must be handled and the judge will tell you when that is. There is a process, the judge gets there first and decides what dogs are treeing and what dogs are not. You have no idea if the judge has decided what dog is treeing and what ones are not. You do not know until he tells you to handle the dogs. Just walk up and handle a dog and you run the risk of being in trouble.

Posted by Rip on 06-17-2018 04:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I agree the dogs must be handled and the judge will tell you when that is. There is a process, the judge gets there first and decides what dogs are treeing and what dogs are not. You have no idea if the judge has decided what dog is treeing and what ones are not. You do not know until he tells you to handle the dogs. Just walk up and handle a dog and you run the risk of being in trouble.

The judge should have that decision made and if he hasn't then it would be his responsibility to tell them NOT to handle them because he hasn't made up his mind (I can't remember if they said he could request them not to be handled or not, I remember that being a big point of discussion because of the wording, did the judge even have the authority to stop them from handling the dogs at the tree by asking).

To do otherwise they would have to change the wording of the rule so last time this came up and I was part of the discussion UKC said that is why the judge has to be the first to the tree so that decision can be made. It don't take forever and it should not take so much time as to not allow someone to go tie their dog. Its a very easy call to make.

Anyway that discussion was many years ago and I think Todd was the official guy back then. It may have (and probably should have) changed but at that time they just informed us that the judge went in first and you handled dogs the purpose of him being first to the tree was for him to make that call and so you didn't have to wait to handle dogs because the rule doesn't say to handle them after the judge tells you to do so it says they have to be handled. It very well could have came up later and been clarified more but at that time I think they left it at the judge going in first gives plenty of time to see which dogs are there and you just handled the dogs.

I always wait if I'm not the judge and I always voice that they can if I am the judge just to keep from having an argument but that's not what the rules say just like before we changed the rule a dog got a free pass to do whatever it wanted with strike points with no minus if another dog treed in before he was struck because the rule said he had to tree on another tree to get his strike scored so he was allowed to quit tracks, run off game, whatever and never get his strike minused because of the wording. That was the official interpretation and that was why they changed the wording.

I think this is the same thing, but it hasn't caused enough trouble for them to change it like the other rule did and I suspect it's why Allen didn't mention getting permission to handle the dog when he answered.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-17-2018 02:23 PM:

This rule has only caused problems when someone wants to handle their dog and the judge says no. Everyone that coonhunts knows that you have to have the judges permission before you can handle your dog. If you handle your dog at any time without the judges permission, you are going to get scratched.

Posted by Rip on 06-17-2018 03:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
This rule has only caused problems when someone wants to handle their dog and the judge says no. Everyone that coonhunts knows that you have to have the judges permission before you can handle your dog. If you handle your dog at any time without the judges permission, you are going to get scratched.

Nope that’s one of those “that’s the way we’ve always done it things” but by rule you handle all dogs at the tree. Notice when Allen answered the question he only said the dog should be handled not handled after permission given.

The reason I remember that discussion many years ago is because after that Elvis stirred the pot even more saying that since you don’t have to get permission to handle dogs at trees that meant you could just turn leashed dogs loose without permission as well when a dog broke the 8 which carded another ruckus but I believe they said you had to wait then because the judge had to verify that it was a dog in the cast and not a house dog. This was many years ago when we were on the old server and Elvis was active and didn’t mind stirring the pot LOL. I miss Elvis and his stirrin stick LOL

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-17-2018 04:27 PM:

So, you are saying that the Allen/UKC has stated that handlers can handle their dogs whenever they want to without being scratched and they don't have to have the judges permission? Oh my goodness!

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 06-17-2018 04:48 PM:

Where is that Elvis fella anyway

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Posted by Rip on 06-17-2018 05:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, you are saying that the Allen/UKC has stated that handlers can handle their dogs whenever they want to without being scratched and they don't have to have the judges permission? Oh my goodness!

No I am saying that somewhere around 15 or 20 years ago we had this discussion and I believe Todd K was the rules guy. This is strictly from memory as it was the old server and I don’t think there is any way to pull that up. This was before the “”root tree” discussion and it was a free for all for 20 pages so there is plenty I could misremember but here goes the logic I think he used for it.

1. The rule says MUST which leaves no choice and is concrete.

2. The rules already state judge is the first to arrive so no need for him to keep them unleashed to see which dogs are there as it should already be decided before the other handlers get to their dogs.

3. Don’t want tied and untied dogs mixing.

4. Don’t want judges to keep people from tying dogs based on how it looks (tie quick on coins to minus them don’t tell them to on slicks or off game hoping to get a scratch for handling the dog)

5. Don’t want a dog that wasnt involved in the race come in and because he is not noticed by the judge tree one tree over and get the Coon the working dogs missed.

6. No confusion if the dog is at the tree it’s tied no trying to get out of it by trying to let the late or milling dog leave and not take minus if they have a Coon.

So after that one Elvis thought he had them with the turning loose to dogs opening (and after he started that thread I thought he may have a point too ) but I remember the difference in that one being the judge had to determine if the opening dog was part of the cast.

These discussions went on for a couple of weeks and I could have something mistaken but at the time I quit following it dogs at the tree were to be leashed immediately and dogs on the leash were released after the judge said so LOL. Haven’t noticed anything about it since then but the whole board was in an uproar for a while over them two.

I will also add that this was early on with the UKC boards and before they officially said the responses were “official”.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-17-2018 06:46 PM:

I'm sure not going to get in the habit of walking in and putting my dog on the leash whenever I feel like it without clear instruction to do so. A good judge scores all situations and helps a cast run smooth. When I'm judging I don't want handlers snatching dogs up especially in thick areas where even seeing what tree they are on can be challenging.

Heck I was in a cast last summer 3 out of the 4 of us were shining my tree, I found the coon, the judge came flying out of the corn saying I was scratched because I started shining before he said so. I was whooping them with that coon. I thought it was clear to start shining as did the other 2. I asked the MOH when is it considered a judge is delaying a cast when all 3 are ready to shine and he's just standing there not starting the shine time.

Now, with you suggesting I could handle my dog that's treed without this judge's approval how do you see me fairing lol

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-17-2018 08:52 PM:

So what happens if a dog comes into the tree, smells around and then leaves without being handled? Is he scratched?

Posted by Rip on 06-17-2018 09:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So what happens if a dog comes into the tree, smells around and then leaves without being handled? Is he scratched?

That’s the point you ain’t supposed to give him the chance he must be handled when he comes in.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-17-2018 10:27 PM:

And what if the handler drags his feet and he isn't? Or what if his handler is the judge?

Posted by joey on 06-18-2018 12:07 AM:

The judge has control of the cast. No one handles a dog without the judge instructing them too at anytime. The rule says they must be handled. So the judge must tell you to handle whatever dogs are at the tree but he decides what dogs that is. Most cases would be obvious but not all of them. I have walked into a lot of trees where I had to walk around the tree to see what dogs are there. If we get there you get around the other side and handle a dog I haven't seen I have know idea what the dog was doing. The way the rule reads they must be leashed before they are scored, but I do not believe its inferring that you can do it without the permission of the judge.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-18-2018 04:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
The judge has control of the cast. No one handles a dog without the judge instructing them too at anytime....

Which rule states that? I can't find it. Is that an actual rule or is that just, "the way that it has always been done"?

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 06-18-2018 04:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Which rule states that? I can't find it. Is that an actual rule or is that just, "the way that it has always been done"?

May not be an actual rule, but a good cast respects a good judge and will let him keep the cast running smoothly.

Guys turning dogs loose or handling dogs the judge hasn't confirmed on a tree, to me shows lack of respect for the judge and can only lead to arguments.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 06-18-2018 05:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Which rule states that? I can't find it. Is that an actual rule or is that just, "the way that it has always been done"?

16.b.1. Hunting judge has complete authority and will be responsible for all scoring situations

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-18-2018 06:06 PM:

Thanks Donnie, there it is in black and white.
But is handling or turning loose a dog a "scoring situation"?
I for one could use a little guidance here. Where is our leader? I have always thought that you could not handle or turn loose your dog without the judges permission. That is "the way that it has always been done". But thanks to Rip, now I am not too sure.

Posted by RJ Burks on 06-19-2018 12:57 PM:

I would think the judge is actually in the process of scoring dogs anytime hunt time is running...

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-19-2018 01:39 PM:

Oh my goodness, I don't guess that Mr Gingerich is going to touch this one. It seems that it would be very simple for him to say that either we have to have the judges permission to leash or unleash our dogs or we don't. It can't take that much thought can it?

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