UKC Forums - Nite Hunt Scenario

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Posted by JiM on 03-03-2018 07:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Take the trap out of the picture. They find them barking at a candy bar, do they get a free pass?

Which dog you talking about? They all did something different so they get scored differently.
I do agree that the empty trap would be scored the same as a hollow log, hole in the ground, etc. And I don't believe 4(j) applies to any of them. It only applies to a dog handled at a tree
Good question though.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 03-03-2018 07:52 PM:

I'm not sure it's a place of refuge if there's nowhere to hide and nothin in it. I'd minus everything on the card except for B's strike and I'd take a long hard look at what it's doin before I turned back in to it. Is it trailing 10 feet away or standing back 10 feet barking lol

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Posted by sleepy head on 03-03-2018 07:52 PM:

Lets say instead of trap, everything is the same and they are barking at rolled up roll of wire fence where it's obviously coon free. I don't see how dog c gets away without deleting track and next tree minis. Jmo

Posted by yadkintar on 03-03-2018 08:41 PM:

If I walked in and mine was barking at an empty trap with a honey bun in it !!! I would get minused both ways then I would withdraw me and that dog would have a visit and you wouldn't see me with that dog at the next hunt.

Tar

Posted by sleepy head on 03-03-2018 08:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
If I walked in and mine was barking at an empty trap with a honey bun in it !!! I would get minused both ways then I would withdraw me and that dog would have a visit and you wouldn't see me with that dog at the next hunt.

Tar

I'm sure you would harvest the honey bun and enjoy it with a nice cup of coffee back at the truck

Posted by Country AintBad on 03-03-2018 09:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
Looks like the right dog won in the end,
The Advisor says caged coon or coon in a live trap can not be scored & the points are deleted. as for there being no coon in the trap and taking minus, it might just be a bad brake that we all get at times when we are comp coon hunting. so you very well could have scored it correctly but for the turning back in strike points that Jim pointed out.

So with the advisor stating that then the 225- would have been delete for dog a and dog c delete and still cut back in to dog b striking for next available being 50 then 25 for next dog struck.

I had argued that I thought I read something about a trap being considered a place of refuge once but couldn't find anything on score card, red rule book or the white one that plainly stated trap.

It's all good though even with 225 being deleted still wouldn't have changed the outcome. And that's why the question was removed because it wasn't a game changer in the end.

Thanks everyone for the education!

Posted by sleepy head on 03-03-2018 09:40 PM:

Sure don't see a caged coon in a trap and a caged honey bun in a trap being a scoring comparison

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 03-03-2018 09:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Country AintBad
So with the advisor stating that then the 225- would have been delete for dog a and dog c delete and still cut back in to dog b striking for next available being 50 then 25 for next dog struck.

I had argued that I thought I read something about a trap being considered a place of refuge once but couldn't find anything on score card, red rule book or the white one that plainly stated trap.

It's all good though even with 225 being deleted still wouldn't have changed the outcome. And that's why the question was removed because it wasn't a game changer in the end.

Thanks everyone for the education!

you probably only delete if a coon was in the trap.
but the trap was empty, what if there was some other critter in it, minus/scratch depending if a champion cast or registered cast--I'm sure if it had a possem it might change this discussion --lol

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 03-04-2018 02:10 AM:

I believe the Advisor page you are looking for is page115 of the new edition. Coons that can't be scored.
Further on page135 although not dealing directly with a box trap the scenario is different with water , it still addresses a place of refuge as some have called the vacant trap and the definition. Read the answer given. I think it answers the question.
Still logically any time a dog comes up short and stays treed whether a stump ,a body of water,etc it gets minus if it has been declared treed.
In this case my vote would be to minus Dog A on both strike and tree. Minus dog C strike . Minus dog B tree and cut A,C into trailing Dog B depending on what it did when cast got into the box trap.

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Posted by joey on 03-04-2018 02:35 AM:

Everyone is putting way to much thought into this. Its handled the same as dogs barking at a tight fence. Dog A gets minus both ways. B is minus his tree points and C gets minus on his strike. You cant give C next available tree point because that is strictly if the dog is found on a tree. Not a hole in the ground, on a fence, on a trap ect...

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Posted by sleepy head on 03-04-2018 03:18 AM:

I guess i would of scored it wrong, most of the rules are mostly common sense if you think about them a while. My common sense isn't kicking in on this one.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 03-04-2018 03:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Everyone is putting way to much thought into this. Its handled the same as dogs barking at a tight fence. Dog A gets minus both ways. B is minus his tree points and C gets minus on his strike. You cant give C next available tree point because that is strictly if the dog is found on a tree. Not a hole in the ground, on a fence, on a trap ect...

Exactly

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Posted by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 12:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
I guess i would of scored it wrong, most of the rules are mostly common sense if you think about them a while. My common sense isn't kicking in on this one.

I'm with u, if the dog shows treed when I get there and then I minus dog A in the "TREE" column, you better believe dog C is getting treated with the same courtesy, (RULE 4(j) whether it be a hole, fence, hollow log, old barn, or lake shore etc. It don't say anywhere is has to be strictly a tree. Anytime a dog is treeing but not declared treed and you minus one dog both strike & Tree, rule 4(j) should come into effect.

SO, I still got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus next available tree

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B

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Posted by yadkintar on 03-04-2018 02:18 PM:

Two questions :

1. Is a honeybun considered off game ?
2. Can a dog be scratched for running or molesting a honeybun ?

Tar

Posted by JiM on 03-04-2018 03:34 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jkidd1
[B]I'm with u, if the dog shows treed when I get there and then I minus dog A in the "TREE" column, you better believe dog C is getting treated with the same courtesy, (RULE 4(j) whether it be a hole, fence, hollow log, old barn, or lake shore etc. It don't say anywhere is has to be strictly a tree. Anytime a dog is treeing but not declared treed and you minus one dog both strike & Tree, rule 4(j) should come into effect.

SO, I still got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus next available tree

DOG A & C are then recut l

Looks like we need an answer to the question of whether that empty live trap constitutes a tree, as it pertains to 4(j) or not. Me and joey say it doesn't, jkidd and Sleepy says it does. It doesn't matter who is right, but it does matter what is right.

Posted by jawscardodger on 03-04-2018 03:47 PM:

I say not a tree. If this was ruled a tree than it could be also applied to the stationary rule.

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Posted by Philip on 03-04-2018 04:01 PM:

My thoughts, if not a tree you can't award points, how can you minus? Place of refuse?

Posted by sleepy head on 03-04-2018 04:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Philip
My thoughts, if not a tree you can't award points, how can you minus? Place of refuse?

I'm lost. How can you not if the refuse is void of a coon?

Posted by LoggyBayouBlues on 03-04-2018 04:33 PM:

Rule 4J I got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus strike and awarded next available tree point's and minus tree point's.

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B and are eligible for next available strike point's which are 50 point's.

DOG A 225-
DOG B 75-
DOG C 100-

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Posted by Rip on 03-04-2018 05:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
I'm with u, if the dog shows treed when I get there and then I minus dog A in the "TREE" column, you better believe dog C is getting treated with the same courtesy, (RULE 4(j) whether it be a hole, fence, hollow log, old barn, or lake shore etc. It don't say anywhere is has to be strictly a tree. Anytime a dog is treeing but not declared treed and you minus one dog both strike & Tree, rule 4(j) should come into effect.

SO, I still got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus next available tree

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B

I get what you are saying but assigning points does not come into play on a ground hole because the handler has the option of not treeing in on those and you can score strike alone based on the ground hole. IF a dog is declared treed then the dog has tree points in play but otherwise it does not.

Now the question would be is this scored as a ground hole/place of refuge or a tree.

I am with Jim on this one just based on the fact that tree points are optional both plus and minus on ground holes/places of refuge. That rule is put into place because dogs don't act right at a hole and the rules makers knew it. That's why only one dog in the bunch has to show the hole to get every one of the dogs foolin with the hole circled/plussed or minused. I would think the same would apply here, the dog only had strike points to deal with and no way to assign him tree points because there are special rules in place for things like this and we would follow those instead of rules of a "tree".

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Posted by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 05:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by LoggyBayouBlues
Rule 4J I got it scored like this

DOG A- Minus both ways
DOG B- Minus tree for not being there
DOG C- Minus strike and awarded next available tree point's and minus tree point's.

DOG A & C are then recut to DOG B and are eligible for next available strike point's which are 50 point's.

DOG A 225-
DOG B 75-
DOG C 100-

Also with Rule 4(j) I minus just next available tree and delete strike, this rule is under "Tree Minus"

Posted by jkidd1 on 03-04-2018 05:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I get what you are saying but assigning points does not come into play on a ground hole because the handler has the option of not treeing in on those and you can score strike alone based on the ground hole. IF a dog is declared treed then the dog has tree points in play but otherwise it does not.

Now the question would be is this scored as a ground hole/place of refuge or a tree.

I am with Jim on this one just based on the fact that tree points are optional both plus and minus on ground holes/places of refuge. That rule is put into place because dogs don't act right at a hole and the rules makers knew it. That's why only one dog in the bunch has to show the hole to get every one of the dogs foolin with the hole circled/plussed or minused. I would think the same would apply here, the dog only had strike points to deal with and no way to assign him tree points because there are special rules in place for things like this and we would follow those instead of rules of a "tree".

Handler has the option to Not tree his dog any time he don't sound right, he don't get a free ride if it's minused for being there treed. That's why this rule is there.

I would like to hear UKC's answer, Im fine with being wrong here, I just like to being able to score all situations as right as I possibly can't when I'm out there in a hunt.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 03-04-2018 06:19 PM:

There is only one thing I really want to know. How far did the dogs run this cage before treeing it?

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Posted by joey on 03-04-2018 06:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkidd1
Also with Rule 4(j) I minus just next available tree and delete strike, this rule is under "Tree Minus"

I can't remember when and I never can remember the exact quote but ukc has already established that it must be an actual tree to assign next available. Just like he has to be an actual tree to scratch them on the stationary.

Posted by joey on 03-04-2018 06:24 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
There is only one thing I really want to know. How far did the dogs run this cage before treeing it?

No track to it Bruce, it was a layup. Only wipeout dogs can trail cages. Lol

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