UKC Forums - A question for the breeding experts.

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Posted by elvis on 03-06-2018 10:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Fielder
I find the answer in the fact that you find the need to ask the question. I’ve recognized from all these many years of involvement with hounds, there are no proven crosses. We realize the first breeding may “prove” to be good but to use the term “proven cross” as a guarantee that future matings of the same pair will produce like results is wishful thinking at best.

agreed

Posted by honalieh on 03-07-2018 01:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
If the litters were reversed chances are the second cross would never be made to get the good ones.

This is a the largest part of it.

The overall success rate of first-time crosses (count all first-time crosses) is much worse than the overall success rate of second-time crosses (that worked well the first time).

Remember. The great majority of first-time crosses just aren't that good.

Posted by Reuben on 03-07-2018 01:50 AM:

Re: A question for the breeding experts.

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
Maybe some of you who study such things can riddle me this.
Why is it that every pup in a litter may be way above average and you can make the same cross and get the pups in the same hands as the first litter and every one in litter 2 needs culled.?

I suspect when we hear about what you mentioned that those are the news that people will talk about...percentage wise, how many times does it happen in 100 second litters compared to the first litters?

of course we are talking about well bred coon dogs...

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Posted by Chuck Allen on 03-07-2018 03:19 AM:

Or why does is it seem some litters only the females make it and in some litters only the males. Or is it less about the pups or cross and more about the trainer/training or lack there of?

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Posted by edwardfasteddy on 03-07-2018 05:30 AM:

Or is it less about the pups or cross and more about the trainer/training or lack there of?

Bingo!!!! Anyone with a female in heat can pick up the phone and get a stud dog lined up, but after that I haven't seen any of these guys shed much light on the subject after that!!!HEHEHEHE!!

Posted by elvis on 03-07-2018 05:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by edwardfasteddy
Or is it less about the pups or cross and more about the trainer/training or lack there of?
Bingo!!!! Anyone with a female in heat can pick up the phone and get a stud dog lined up, but after that I haven't seen any of these guys shed much light on the subject after that!!!HEHEHEHE!!

You can only do so much as a trainer.
I just was wondering why you cant expect dogs with the same ability from one litter to the next.

Posted by edwardfasteddy on 03-07-2018 05:52 PM:

This is easy, The pups in the first, second, third, what ever, any given litter the pups are all twins in that litter and more apt to be more alike just like twins are. the second litter the pups are full sisters or full brothers but they are not twins to the first litter......

Posted by elvis on 03-07-2018 10:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by edwardfasteddy
This is easy, The pups in the first, second, third, what ever, any given litter the pups are all twins in that litter and more apt to be more alike just like twins are. the second litter the pups are full sisters or full brothers but they are not twins to the first litter......

interesting thought there fasteddy. I'm gonna ponder over it a bit before I agree or disagree.

Posted by Kler Kry on 03-08-2018 02:40 AM:

Re: Re: A question for the breeding experts.

quote:
Originally posted by Kler Kry
If the same cross is made multiple times and one litter produces 100% acceptable coon dogs and another litter produces 20% acceptable coon dogs will the reproduction percentage of the good pups from each littler be comparable?
Has anyone tested this?

An observation that I'ved seen was that the 100% litters look similar as well as perform similar. The littermates of the litters with poor performance all looked different from each other and performed differently as well. I've observed this several times over the years. Not much different than the average litter from a non proven cross.

Posted by Reuben on 03-08-2018 04:25 AM:

To Hobo

From what I have read on this site you are known as a breeder of good walker dogs...

I am assuming you linebreed best to best within a family of Walkers...have you had the problem with the second litter of pups that were from the same parents of the first litter...and if so how often did it happen or were the pups consistently the same between the two litters?

It seems to me if the dogs are related and they all are good dogs going all the way back to at least 3 generations I don’t see how this could happen very often...

We can call a line of walkers inbred and line bred with one grand parent being a chow or an English bulldog...I could see that Causing major differences between the first and second litters...same principle applies even with pure bred walkers if there is a lot of variation in the dogs...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Posted by dean jamerson on 03-08-2018 02:06 PM:

I typically raise two pups at a time out of the same litter, i have always been intrigued by the fact that although there are similarities the differences can be polar opposites, one huntsbon a mission one doesnt, one Gets treed too much, one runs all nite long. When i see those for sale adds and its a littermate to old so and so bout all that means is they were littermates. I think thats why when those females come along like a stylish queen it makes them that much more special!

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Posted by yadkinriver on 03-08-2018 02:25 PM:

I think a closer look should be taken to genetics. I disagree that all pups in the same litter are twins. It's possible that they are very different. If they match up close on phenotype (looks) and genotype (actions) the more likely to be closely related. Then you could make a brother and sister mating and come closer to almost cloning the parents. You can possibly breed distant cousins that match and be breeding closer than you think. Still it's done on observation so nothing is a sure thing or we would all be hunting !00% winners. Then again, how could that happen?

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-08-2018 03:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkinriver
I think a closer look should be taken to genetics. I disagree that all pups in the same litter are twins. It's possible that they are very different. If they match up close on phenotype (looks) and genotype (actions) the more likely to be closely related. Then you could make a brother and sister mating and come closer to almost cloning the parents. You can possibly breed distant cousins that match and be breeding closer than you think. Still it's done on observation so nothing is a sure thing or we would all be hunting !00% winners. Then again, how could that happen?

All pups in the same litter are twins, dizygotic (paternal) unidentical meaning they are born from the same birth but conceived from separate eggs and sperm cell therefore having different but similar DNA. Identical twins, monozygonic twins known as identical in our human world, share even the same DNA are possible resulting from one egg and sperm cell then dividing to form 2 or more (more not documented but is still possible). Here is the kicker identical twins in dogs may not look the exact same but will have the exact same amount of hairs of each color but markings may be placed differently, something discovered in cloning of dogs which is essentially making a twin with identical DNA.
Back to the subject of multiple crosses, it has been our experience that when the first cross worked well across board the 2nd has also. I believe the environment they are given to start plays a very big part.
Another thing to think on is that those who breed racehorses or greyhounds do not breed old females, many won't breed a female dog over age 4. In humans we know that after age 30 the risk for pregnancy and birth defects go up and by age 40 significantly. The same could very well hold true in our dogs. Females are born with all the eggs they will ever have where sperm regardless of age is constanly replaced with new. The risk of gene mutation and birth defects increase with a females age. How are we to know when a dog or dogs from a litter have been born MR? Many of the old breeders liked to breed females on their first or second cycle and will swear this is where her best crosses came from and scientifically could be right.
Jen

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Posted by yadkinriver on 03-08-2018 03:33 PM:

Just had to out do me. Gonna tell Tar to send me your donuts.

Posted by edwardfasteddy on 03-08-2018 04:40 PM:

Redneck Mafia!

So do you recommend using semen that was collected off of a OLD stud dog like Lipper or Yadkin Tar Rattler, You know that was collected when they were OLD!!! Let me know ASAP!

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 03-08-2018 07:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by edwardfasteddy
Redneck Mafia!

So do you recommend using semen that was collected off of a OLD stud dog like Lipper or Yadkin Tar Rattler, You know that was collected when they were OLD!!! Let me know ASAP!

Normally I would say go for it but you may want to hold off on those two 😉.
Yriver what flavor?
Elvis, how old was the female 2nd time around? Where did the pups go environment plays such a big part. There is no secret formula or we would all use it!
The thing I have always observed like many of you is how different pups in the same litter can be in looks, personality type of mouth and what kind they used on track but all could run a track and tree coons from a very young age. I will use one litter as an example. We crossed a XJr female on Mafia (Mafia's grandmother was Big Water Oak Mable a full littermate sister to X we made it 2x and should have more) within the same litter one female was nearly still mouth and had a male dog mouth, her sister opened quite a bit and sounded like something had her by the tail when she ran a track. one male may scream and bawl on track and scream and chop at the tree, the others bawl and chop most all had very similar locates all were above average in their ability to run a track and tree coons. The one thing they all had in common is nearly all were started here. It is always interesting to have multiple pups from the same cross and then later a 2nd cross to pick out similarities and differences.
Jen

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 03-09-2018 12:15 PM:

Yes you can breed old semen to young females, semen is constantly replaced with new, the females eggs are not.
Only healthy sperm can penetrate the egg, as the male gets older he will have less healthy sperm, but he will still have some that are healthy, until he goes sterile.

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 03-09-2018 12:21 PM:

Our Tree Blaster semen is 22 yrs old and they said it still looks very good when unthawed, but they advise not to breed any female over 4 yrs old for the best results.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-15-2018 04:11 PM:

I just saw on the news that after an astronaut returned from space 7% of his DNA had changed. Scientists are now saying that stress breaks down your DNA and when your body repairs this DNA it can be different. I wonder if this is what happens in dogs? Their genes can mutate or be destroyed or changed as they get older. This could also happen in the freezing/thawing process of frozen semen. The incidence of birth defects in children born to older woman has long been known to be higher. Reproduction specialists don't like to use frozen semen on older canine females because of this.

Posted by Reuben on 03-15-2018 04:29 PM:

I saw the same news report this morning and immediately thought of what I have believed...the dna changed that can happen to unborn puppies in certain environmentS and conditions...

I was going to post here and Richard was thinking in doing the same...

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Posted by joey on 03-15-2018 04:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Allen
Or why does is it seem some litters only the females make it and in some litters only the males. Or is it less about the pups or cross and more about the trainer/training or lack there of?

Sexlinked traits

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Posted by cabins on 03-15-2018 05:32 PM:

5th litter cache x Abbey. Proven cross. If you don't raise and train your females that are line bred you don't have any control on gene pool I have 14 broke females and have bred them to 7 different studs all Smokey river. If you don't hunt them and study their behavior than you're just guessing. I evaluate each cross and make my assement of what to breed to. If you don't hunt them you have no information. Many consider themselves experts yet they don't have a clue. Just more lofty kernels of wisdom from self proclaimed experts just proves their low iq. And how little they know about breeding

Posted by dean jamerson on 03-15-2018 08:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I just saw on the news that after an astronaut returned from space 7% of his DNA had changed. Scientists are now saying that stress breaks down your DNA and when your body repairs this DNA it can be different. I wonder if this is what happens in dogs? Their genes can mutate or be destroyed or changed as they get older. This could also happen in the freezing/thawing process of frozen semen. The incidence of birth defects in children born to older woman has long been known to be higher. Reproduction specialists don't like to use frozen semen on older canine females because of this.

I watched a story on 60 minutes where they are cloning polo ponies, one team in argentena is soley made up of clones. It is illegal in horse racing. There is a texas millionaire involved he said the technology exist to do humans. Who would want to clone your favorite hound, would we want a clone of the old time greats?

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Posted by HOBO on 03-15-2018 08:53 PM:

Re: To Hobo

quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
From what I have read on this site you are known as a breeder of good walker dogs...

I am assuming you linebreed best to best within a family of Walkers...have you had the problem with the second litter of pups that were from the same parents of the first litter...and if so how often did it happen or were the pups consistently the same between the two litters?

It seems to me if the dogs are related and they all are good dogs going all the way back to at least 3 generations I don’t see how this could happen very often...

We can call a line of walkers inbred and line bred with one grand parent being a chow or an English bulldog...I could see that Causing major differences between the first and second litters...same principle applies even with pure bred walkers if there is a lot of variation in the dogs...

Just now seeing this Reuben....

I’ve made repeat crosses several times over the years. While I may not have ever had that one FREAK out of a litter I’ve always seen just about the same results from each cross. I’m always bred for the average over one super freak. I made the Lobo/Sassy and the Lobo/Shadow cross several times with pretty much the same results each time. I also made the Pride/Ruby cross about 6 times and each litter was pretty much the same. I’ve made a few crosses that I thought would really click but was never really happy with them and never made those crosses again.

After reading all the replies to this post I must be one of the luckiest guys alive.

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Posted by Ghost14 on 03-15-2018 09:13 PM:

Hobo, I don’t think you are that lucky. I believe you have just put more time and effort into what you are trying to accomplish. Most people have a hard time wrapping their head around genetic theory. It’s not an art form like many believe as much as a product of hard work and sacrifices. Few are able to make hard judgement and be brutally honest about a dog for various reasons and that becomes the downfall of what they are breeding towards. I hear so many people state genetic theory as a fact when in reality there is just so much we don’t know and understand. Some basic principles can be applied but, a huge part of it is trial and error. The good Breeders I’ve seen did a lot better job of swaying the odds in their favor than most of us do.

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