UKC Forums - E-Collar Training

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-- E-Collar Training (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928483345)

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-12-2017 11:54 AM:

Bruce, That has always been my experience, they associate vibrate as just a milder form of shock.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

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Posted by pamjohnson on 06-12-2017 01:57 PM:

I prefer mine tone broke. I don't even like hunting with someone that wont tone break there dogs. when a dog is in danger it can and does save his life many times over. it also prevents you from getting in many bad situations with home owners and such. I shock them for trash running and anything else I see fitting.
for some people there dogs don't hunt far enough away that they don't need to worry about it I guess. then there are others that feel there dog needs to be able to run wild or they may not make a competition dog. what a joke.

last but not least when I am ready to go to the next hollow or go home or what ever else. I AM READY.

Posted by ole hoss on 06-12-2017 07:28 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: e-collar

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Okay ole hoss...LOL I promise to let them think they are great trainers for "teaching" a dog to come in when they hit the tone button. I will even compliment them on their great accomplishment!!!! Way to go guys!!! Just keep training that way.

Yes thank you!!! Lol

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-12-2017 08:23 PM:

I'm just mediocre at best but if that vibrate button will make me Great, i am in! lol

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by pamjohnson on 06-12-2017 11:56 PM:

ole hoss

I am sure I have heard your reasoning before but would like to hear the reason again. and I would like to know if how you get your dog back in to you? do you have any concern about roads or posted ground? thanks in advance.

Posted by shadinc on 06-13-2017 12:19 AM:

Good question Pam. They told us how NOT to train but, not how to train.

Posted by msinc on 06-13-2017 03:50 AM:

Re: ole hoss

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
I am sure I have heard your reasoning before but would like to hear the reason again. and I would like to know if how you get your dog back in to you? do you have any concern about roads or posted ground? thanks in advance.

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Good question Pam. They told us how NOT to train but, not how to train.

Here is my reasoning, and don't get me wrong...if you want to use the tone to recall your dog you are the only one that has to like doing it that way. For me, I find it a lot easier to get a dog to come to me when I call him by either voice or a whistle. I have never had a problem accomplishing this with a dog. It takes some time, a few weeks and a check cord, but I have always been able to pretty easily get my dogs to come to my voice. I can start working on this when they are little puppies, way before I am ever trying to get them to hunt out and tree coons.
By comparison, I have had much more trouble, taken way longer and found it a lot harder to break a dog from running certain "off" game. I don't want to just hurt my dogs until they decide it's best if they stop...that usually has bad side effects that some dogs may not ever get over. You don't know which ones until after you have possibly damaged one. So why not use the tone to "warn" the dog??? You will still have to shock him or her, but not anywhere near as much. The dog doesn't loose it's mind and freak out and forget what you were even trying to do in the first place.
I have found that it takes a lot more times of stopping a dog from running off game with a collar than most people realize. Some people believe that they hit the dog two or three times and it is broke. Those are the same guys that get on here and wonder why their dog runs coons for 2 or 3 miles and then slick tree!!
Maybe some dogs will get it that fast, but not very many. In my experience it takes 30-40 times of stopping a dog to get them to the point where they really understand you don't want them doing that and NEVER do it again.
So, the dog runs a deer and you tone it, it stops but goes back for more...you tone it again and it slows down but continues. This time a mild shock...he stops for a few minutes and finally tries one more time. This time another tone stops him and he gives up. You just completed 4 "stops" on one deer in one session. I am lucky enough to live on a farm with plenty of woods in my back yard. I have trails and run my dogs every day. Many folks trying to break a dog don't have this set up and are lucky to get out once a week if that.
Breaking dogs from running off game is the biggest challenge and the hardest to complete. If I can utilize a collar to get 4 stops on a dog I am breaking in one session to me that is a whole lot better use of time and technology than simply getting the dog to come to me by being lazy and just pushing a button. An Alpha costs $700.00 and is the best tool for breaking a dog from running off game. Calling a dog with my voice or a whistle is simple and doesn't cost....which one makes the most sense to use to do the most difficult job a trainer has to do??????
I think Mr. Fryar said something like "doing your yard work makes things easier in the field".....I couldn't agree more when it comes to calling in a dog and I don't need to spend $700.00 to get that job done.
Let me say one more thing...if I cant get my dog to stop running deer of fox do you think I really care much if he is running one towards a road????? Bottom line, think about how rare a dog is that is tone broke to come to you....not very. Now think about how rare a dog is that DOES NOT RUN OFF GAME!!!!! Extremely very rare.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-13-2017 12:04 PM:

msinc, that was explained well, and I can tell from your post thru the years you are a knowledgeable hound man.
Here is my only difference and your way still may be better
In these straight up and down ridges a whistle or voice or horn is useless at more than 500 yds, they just echo back in your face. lol ..... The tone is your only chance at retrieving your dog.
Deer, possum,skunk and now those stinking armadillos are our off game, and i deal very harshly with off game on the farm before, and in the woods. Positive coon reinforcement always
Trash is just not a big problem for me, after they reach the adult stage. But getting my dog back in these mountains is a big concern
The e-collar is a great tool and I would like to hear how more use it to train there hounds.

I am scared now that i am about to raise some trashy son"s of guns! lol

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by msinc on 06-13-2017 12:18 PM:

Thank you sir for the nice comments, it is very kind of you to say so. I don't know if my way is necessarily any better. If that is what it takes to get a dog to come back in your area then i would be doing it too.
I have found that the more drive and "spirit" a dog has the more likely they are to be trashy also. Really gamey dogs tend to make the best performers, if the owner can handle them....many cannot. I will add that as I said in a previous post, you have to concentrate on just one thing at first. I always make it deer. Once you have the dog broke on them you can start using the collar for more things you want to stop, because the dog understands that tone means quit now while your ahead.
Mr. Fryar, I am surprised that you don't have trouble with bear and hogs in your neck of the woods. I am lucky, we don't have neither one here, but we are polluted with deer and fox.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-13-2017 12:36 PM:

Oh believe me ,I raise heavy Lipper bred dogs and drive is the last thing i ever worry about, also have some Yadkin River.
Too far north for hogs and just a little out of the range for bear.
Deer are our biggest problem also, they are everywhere and sure are fun I love a pup that wants to crank something up.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by msinc on 06-13-2017 01:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
I love a pup that wants to crank something up.

yep, they are fun to listen to, blasting a deer out of the county...but it gets un-fun real quick when you are trying to tree coons.
Deer can be a challenge, but honestly I have more trouble with gray fox. The reason being, they hang out in the same places as coon do at night and dogs rarely run them fast. The dog doesn't really sound like he is running off and just ends up making a circle. Usually when the dog realizes he is coming back around to where you are he grabs a tree and slicks. Many handlers don't have a clue. For me, this is really a good time to tone to stop. There's a 50/50 chance the dog is running a coon and I'd sure hate to hurt him for that.

Posted by pamjohnson on 06-13-2017 01:30 PM:

msinc

I am glad using the tone works for you breaking your dogs off trash and so on but I know that is not going to be something I have any interest in. I don't really have a problem setting them back shocking them right from the get go if I have done my home work ahead of time. also some of mine hunt to deep at times to just yell and call them in. + I hate yelling at all.
not all dogs respond to a shocking or the tone the same. ya need to learn the dog.

I do agree trash is a tough lesson taught. red fox in my area is the worst. plenty of deer but they are generally easy.
thanks for the reply.
I would still like to hear from ol hoss

Posted by msinc on 06-13-2017 01:39 PM:

Re: msinc

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
......I don't really have a problem setting them back shocking them right from the get go if I have done my home work ahead of time.......

If you "don't have any interest in it" then why did you ask????
Okay, Ms. Johnson from "Airville".....you called us out on our training...now hows about lets you take your turn??? Exactly what "home work ahead of time" is it that you do, and so on?????

Posted by pamjohnson on 06-14-2017 12:49 AM:

Re: Re: msinc

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
If you "don't have any interest in it" then why did you ask????
Okay, Ms. Johnson from "Airville".....you called us out on our training...now hows about lets you take your turn??? Exactly what "home work ahead of time" is it that you do, and so on?????

the home work is in the yard getting them used to the e-collar, being toned to come and maybe even shocking them before they ever get in the woods for a coon hunt. you know all the simple stuff. how much electric it takes to get a response.
most dogs will never be broke from off game by simply toning them and I see no reason to fire a warning shot is all I was implying.
I am sure there are much better trainers than me and what works for me may not work for others.
after all I was hoping to learn something if ole hoss had a reason that seemed logical for me.

Posted by msinc on 06-14-2017 01:58 AM:

Re: Re: Re: msinc

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
the home work is in the yard getting them used to the e-collar, being toned to come and maybe even shocking them before they ever get in the woods for a coon hunt. you know all the simple stuff. how much electric it takes to get a response.
most dogs will never be broke from off game by simply toning them and I see no reason to fire a warning shot is all I was implying.
I am sure there are much better trainers than me and what works for me may not work for others.
after all I was hoping to learn something if ole hoss had a reason that seemed logical for me.

Fair enough...I agree, they will never be broke from running junk by toning. It always takes some electricity applied correctly. I also agree that what works for one trainer or dog may or may not work for another. I also believe that the area or location you hunt can vary for some strange reason...I have never been able to figure it out why or what it is that makes one area so different for dogs to hunt.
There used to be two guys that lived nearby. They were rich and had money to burn on their favorite sport. These guys would go 2 or 3 times a year all over the country and buy the best dogs they could find....bring them back here and the dogs just could not seem to perform. At first i thought these guys were not playing straight. One year I went out to Missouri and Indiana with them. I saw first hand the dogs they bought tree coon after coon out there. Bring them back here and they might have treed three in a month.
Two of the best dogs i have ever seen go, Clover and Hardwood Dan got the job done no matter where they were dropped.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 06-14-2017 06:31 PM:

Ladies and gentlemen all these post and no one mentioned conditioning their dogs to an e-collar???????????

A hunter needs to know their dog and how it responds to different levels of stimulation. If you don't understand that, your efforts are going to be minimal at best.

Tools are wonderful when you use them the correct way. I would hope none of you would use a crescent wrench to hammer a nail.

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Aim small miss small

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 06-14-2017 07:59 PM:

I start at 2, and if that don't change his condition, then i move to whoa Nelly! ........ Just kidding Larry

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by shadinc on 06-14-2017 09:28 PM:

There was a post on this forum a few months ago by a man that trained canine dogs for the police department. He said he trained at a public park, with an e-collar, and no one could tell when he was correcting his dog. No jumping or yelping. That's something to think about.

Posted by ole hoss on 06-14-2017 11:25 PM:

Re: Re: Re: msinc

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
the home work is in the yard getting them used to the e-collar, being toned to come and maybe even shocking them before they ever get in the woods for a coon hunt. you know all the simple stuff. how much electric it takes to get a response.
most dogs will never be broke from off game by simply toning them and I see no reason to fire a warning shot is all I was implying.
I am sure there are much better trainers than me and what works for me may not work for others.
after all I was hoping to learn something if ole hoss had a reason that seemed logical for me.

If ole hoss has learned one thing in life it's to each his own. I train mine to win and don't really want to see him after I cut him loose until he's treed or I'm ready to go. At which time I hollor dead and he comes in no matter if he's treed across a lake or ditch running track or just taking a piss. Dead means ( QUIT) then I call his name which means come. Pretty simple dogs our smart!! Alot smarter than some people. Dogs can hear alot further than u think too. Ever had a big eared dog? I have if he can here a dog bark a mile away that I can't here then he can hear me. But to me it's what works for you if it makes u happy by all means do it.

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Posted by pamjohnson on 06-15-2017 01:04 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: msinc

quote:
Originally posted by ole hoss
If ole hoss has learned one thing in life it's to each his own. I train mine to win and don't really want to see him after I cut him loose until he's treed or I'm ready to go. At which time I hollor dead and he comes in no matter if he's treed across a lake or ditch running track or just taking a piss. Dead means ( QUIT) then I call his name which means come. Pretty simple dogs our smart!! Alot smarter than some people. Dogs can hear alot further than u think too. Ever had a big eared dog? I have if he can here a dog bark a mile away that I can't here then he can hear me. But to me it's what works for you if it makes u happy by all means do it.

thanks for the reply.

Posted by wjoey on 06-15-2017 01:33 AM:

Along time ago maby 25 years I drew some fellows that trained bird dogs by the end of the night I was begging them to put the handle they had on there coon dog on mine even tho mine treed 3 coons to there 0, whistle once and he was gone hunting whistle 2 times and he came in point to the dog box and he loaded up , point to the ground and he sat down , only part they forgot and the most important was to teach him to tree a coon.

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