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-- Breeding Good Coonhounds. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928482653)

The under taking of breeding for this is far more than any one person could do.....

It would take a hive mind mentality for it to work, where every member of the "hive" is working toward the same goal.... The problem here is that we cant get two coon hunters to agree about what a good dog is, let alone a whole hive!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

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Tar the percentages are great to look at and understand. I think understand is the KEY FACTOR.
10% use to be the gold standard. Few above that and you then have to look at why. You made a good point. Is it high because the number of pups were high. Better number of pups make it out of less pups reproduced seems to mean more to many.

Just never like the female percentages. I think there was too much manipulation to the system to ensure a particular litter was in a controlled environment while other females pups went all over and had a wide range of influences from their environment.

To show an example. Litter of pups kept by two or three people and all hunted and titled in same area using good and strict training methods and have a litter percentage of say 60%. Take another litter and those pups end up all over. Some with serious hunters and some just starting out. That litter has a percentage of say 40%. I would give the female with the 40% the pick for my next litter. Why--Most pups go to the common man and their environment is not controlled. The good reproducer can reproduce a good number of pups for the common man.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

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Oak Ridge you are right. Why because most of the dogs we hunt and enjoy are culls or actually should be when it comes to breeding. But to move the breed along like a farmer would is you have to select the ones that are breeders so all the colored balls move toward the same color.

The big difference in how the Farmers and Coon Hound Breeders do all this is the Intangibles of the Coonhunters and the Tangibles of the Farmers, such as their tape measures and scales.

Until you can get everyone to agree that this voice is the right one and this tree style is the right one or this style of hunting is actually a hard hunting dog. It won't work. Ten coon hound breeders breed for a good voice while all ten have a different opinion on what a good voice is. Ten different breeders breed for tree style while they all have different opinions on that. Ten different people breed for hard hunting dog when most of them are probably just breeding a dog that wants to leave the country and not actually hunting.

You can take a farmer in Kansas and a Farmer in Iowa and compare specifics of their breeding program that are verified by scales and then decide if that bull is something you want in your heard. You then weigh and see if the offspring measure up to your thoughts. The coon hunter in Iowa breed to the dog in Kansas with only a man's thoughts that the dog has the right stuff. Then the man in Iowa gets pups and he is in love with them and his thoughts are they have the right stuff. His buddy says they are crazy and his thoughts on their ability are not the same as the owners. We just see it too many different ways for the coon hounds to ever be bred correctly.
Only way is to put something tangible in there that two people cannot dispute. The freak or prepotent dog does that and it is a coon in the tree. Just we wait generations for the next one to come along because we as coon hound breeders don't know how to produce that dog over and over again. Now here is where I can contradict myself. If you think we have raised the bar on coon hound pups that are being born today compared to those 40 years ago. Then we have done a better job in breeding. We have produced a better breeding stock. Thing is we are always striving for more while dealing with all these culls.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Not sure why I am seeing it but I am seeing people demand a different type dog more honest , accurate , not as wild of hunting dog the next 3 yrs I look for big changes in the scores and the winners at the major hunts if you don't draw big woods right now the wrong style of dog will get you in trouble gonna get interesting.

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Not sure why I am seeing it but I am seeing people demand a different type dog more honest , accurate , not as wild of hunting dog the next 3 yrs I look for big changes in the scores and the winners at the major hunts if you don't draw big woods right now the wrong style of dog will get you in trouble gonna get interesting.

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Eerrum ahh Joey !!! You got one in your pen that trees more than one coon a cast that's what me is talkin bout lol.

Have we done better breeding, or have we just taken these hounds from "not treeing" too "treeing too much"?
Breed for balance

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

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Tar, sure hope you don't think that treeing more than one coon in a cast is a big challenge.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

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Conrad, I think we have took them past treeing and are heading the other way again. I know some that cherish running hounds that are looking for some more tree in their hounds.

I have always said that breeding dogs is not like making soup but it does work for a good example.

Every woman worth their salt knows how to make a good pot of soup. Many make almost the same soup with great results but one is generally better.

They all start with a base and then sprinkle in some indigents from there. The bases are are different but with all the ingredients they are almost the same soup. Just the base you start with gives one a slightly better flavor.

Our coonhound breeding starts from one of two bases. Treeing base or running base. To make the best soup (dog). Do you start with the running base and add in some sprinkles of treeing. Or do you start with a treeing base and add is some sprinkles of trailing and running.

I know Oak Ridge will say if you use the prepotent stud as an ingredient or base you will come out ahead. He is right. Just have a hard time finding them.

Have to go finish a deck I have been working on too long. lol I will show you a picture of a prepotent deck in about an hour. I just hope it doesn't breed any ideas into the wife head she wants another one around back.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Yea , I think for me it is the running base and sprinkle the tree in carefully, some of these Lipper bred dogs are tree dogs, some aren't. That is why I wanted the Old tree base, of Tree Blaster.
And hopefully will not loose the hard hustling, deep hunting and accuracy, I like to see a coon in most every tree

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Would it surprise you that I can tell you about a man that has been breeding, raising, training, campaining, and winning with the same line of dogs for the past 28 years?

Would it surprise you that he is on his FOURTH generation of standing his own dogs at stud, and is now grooming and selecting his fifth generation?

I've been to his house many times, and know that he doesn't have a stable of "brood females". He is breeding selectively, and very successfully. And his breeding is carried through from generation to generation.

How can this be possible?

Honestly, it is as simple as knowing excellence when you see it, and following some sage advice that is passed on from successful breeder to successful breeder. We can talk about red balls and blue balls, we can talk about standards, and traits, and all of the things we normally hear in the discussions about breeding, but it is truly this simple:

IF YOU DON'T WANT ANOTHER ONE JUST LIKE THE ONE YOU HAVE, DON'T BREED IT

You simply can not "better the breed", or plug holes. If your dog doesn't have a good mouth....don't breed it....if it doesn't have game in the tree when you get there...don't breed it. If you are raising tree dogs, and it won't get treed...don't breed it.

The real secret is to take closely related individuals, who are similar in type, and breed those.....take those pups and breed only the ones that were similar in type to their parents, and breed them to closely related individuals that are similar in type.

You can't make better soup by adding a half a can of tomato soup to half a can of chicken noodle...why would you think you can make better dogs by breeding a dog that lacked one trait to a dog that is strong in that trait? You simply get a half a can of soup!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
The under taking of breeding for this is far more than any one person could do.....

It would take a hive mind mentality for it to work, where every member of the "hive" is working toward the same goal.... The problem here is that we cant get two coon hunters to agree about what a good dog is, let alone a whole hive!

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The porch is done. I can build one like I can breed a dog. Do I want to build them very often. Like breeding the dogs NO. Not the best porch in the neighborhood, but the best one I could build and the best one in my yard. Like my dogs. At the moment they are the best I can train or afford so they will do.
Now some Thompsons water seal and it will really be done. lol Kind of like the dogs. Always something else needed.

20 years ago I could have built that in a weekend. Now it took me a month. Man it is hot out there!

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

If breeding coondogs was about science or genetics, it would have all been figured out a long time go. It isn't.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Bruce, Let me help you on that deck Go to somewhere that carries Benjamin Moore and get the Arborcoat Translucent Oil base stain, I use it on all the custom homes we build, you will be glad you did next year

Oh you can add traits, in one generation! But stay with the same family to add them. And know what your looking for.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

I think it's about: genetics, how there raised , how there trained, do they get hunted? All i can control is how they look and how they sound And that's hard!

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Bruce evidently treeing one coon a cast is a challenge somtimes but that's ok if you get paid anyways. Now don't go tellen me it ain't happening I am a dummy but I can read and I know what zero and split means it means lack of dog power.

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Thanks for the tip Conrad. Should i let the boards dry out some or stain as soon as possible. Funny I putchased the better class of wood but man it shrinks. Years ago i would build a deck and put a nail or edge of square between each board. I put these as tight as possible and have good size cracks between them already. Lol

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Breeding is easy. Start with two dogs you like, who are out of dogs you like for a couple generations back, and get a litter of pups.

Here is the hard part. The pups have to go to people that know what to do with them, or it doesn't matter how well they are bred.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
If breeding coondogs was about science or genetics, it would have all been figured out a long time go. It isn't.

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Bruce, Yes let them dry good so the oil will penetrate deeper.
Josh, You are right about that! I have seen some fine hounds wasted.

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Here is where the coonhound world gets it's box of chocolates,
A great majority do not pay attention to detail, a complete hound if you will, they either don't care or can't see it.
Here are the opposites that people hunt:
Good confirmation- Bad confirmation
Great mouth - house dog mouth
Beautiful houndy type - short eared ugly
Get in the dark- Bit lazy
Independent - me too
Honest strike - Babbler
Calm disposition - hyper crazy
Accurate - 50% good enough
Bawl mouth track - chop mouth track
Trees with other dogs - Gator

There is allot more ,but you get the idea, now randomly mix all that up and have fun lol

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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

There is more times than I can count that there was a super dog in a cross that reproduced like crazy and the rest of its littermates were average at best there just ain't no duplicating it I have tried everything I know to bring back a dog I had and haven't even came close it just happens everything just lines up at that time I guess.

yep

Gonna reply good luck to all the internet breeders!! and hunters!! you have it all fig out!!lol

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C.JONES

O come on Oak Ridge. You cant tell us you know someone breeding their 5th generation of top dogs and leave us hanging without a name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!