UKC Forums - Question for the genetic experts?

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Posted by bullboy on 10-30-2016 10:24 PM:

pearl

what does anyone know about pearl has anyone ran with her or other direct dogs out of her, where i live there are not any bone collectors we hardly have any coonhounds anymore all bear dogs thanks

Posted by GES on 11-01-2016 02:28 AM:

Good responses! I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts. It causes me to ask 'Why?' have I made the choices I have and would I make the same crosses again?

One thing is for sure, dogs like Bone don't come along every day!

GES

Posted by novicane65 on 11-01-2016 11:46 AM:

If there was a great formula for this I would think that we could also look at the Deventer bred dogs also. I mean how many other dogs have had that type of reproduction record for world champs? I'm not saying I'm an expert or taking anything away from Doug and Bone. But I think the Deventer bred dogs have made an impression on the Walker breed as well.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 11-01-2016 12:13 PM:

Jay Lush the fellow that brought genetics to animal breeding, 1937 quote:
Lush saw linebreeding as a way to preserve an exceptional ancestor's influence. For every generation that passes between the ancestor and the present, its influence is reduced by half. To avoid this progressive dilution, "linebreeding takes advantage of the laws of probability as they affect Mendelian inheritance to hold the expected amount of inheritance from an admired ancestor at a nearly constant level...Linebreeding provides, so to speak, a ratchet mechanism for holding any gains already made by selection, while attempting to make further gains."

Interesting that every generation the ancestor's influence is reduced by half. So we can't dive to deep into those papers
Also constant outcrossing just washes them away.

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 11-01-2016 12:24 PM:

Would love for someone to do this with Bone:

A significant advantage of linebreeding over ordinary inbreeding is that, while it also increases homozygosity and prepotency, "the homozygosis produced by linebreeding is more apt to be for desired traits than is the case with undirected inbreeding. Linebreeding tends to separate the breed into distinct families, each closely related to some admired ancestor, between which effective selection can be practiced."

Don't miss the significance of this last point. Lush is saying that if there are multiple lines of animals linebred to a common ancestor, the breeder can manage inbreeding by using those groups as a source of animals for outcrossing while still maintaining the strong genetic influence of the ancestor. And because these groups of animals have not been interbreeding, they can be used to produce offspring that will have a lower rather higher inbreeding coefficient, and thus will benefit from hybrid vigor (a reduction in inbreeding depression) as well as a diminished risk of genetic disorders caused by recessive mutations.

He has bred enough females that this would work on him

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-01-2016 12:48 PM:

Conrad we all do this game for different reasons. It starts out as just trying to tree a coon and then we all add our own flavor to it. Some wants to breed better hounds. Some just want the best dogs no matter where they come from or what they look like. Some just want to win with whatever they have. I never wanted to breed dogs because I did not have the location for it. I did want to know what made them tick and what the successful breeders were doing. My conclusions is it boils down to like throwing mud against the wall and some will stick. Mud is mud and our dogs genetics is genetics. Anyone that throws mud and wants to get good at it gets a feel for the mud in his hand and understands what will stick and if there is a rock or stick in the mud that will lower the chances. Good breeders are the same way. They get a feel for what they are doing and the learn to understand what makes it not work and not work. Good breeders don't breed great dogs, they breed consistent dogs. Thing is the Treeing Walker breed as a whole is one large breeder of dogs. Like you Conrad breeding dogs and then you have Treeing walkers breeding dogs. Due to shear numbers the Treeing walker breeders as a whole they will have dogs born that are better than Conrads dogs but not as consistent. Then the Conrads of the world try and figure out what the Bone was born, why the Lipper was born, why the Mr. Clean was born. Those were the few handfuls of mud that stuck on the wall that everybody got to see while all their brothers and sister didn't stick. While in my mind there is no doubt people like you get more mud to stick you have to ask yourself. Are you looking for the mud that sticks most of the time but not the best mud ball on the wall or are we looking for the perfect mud ball that sticks and then can't be duplicated. We are looking for the best and that is why the treeing walker breed is all over the place. Just like the mud on the walls is all over the place with most of it laying on the ground next to the wall.

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 11-01-2016 01:46 PM:

Bruce, I hope I am not misunderstood, It does not matter how Bone or Lipper Or Sackett Jr. were born, Like I said before I think God made them not man But what I want to focus on is trying to keep the great ones traits. Keep Family lines, I think that is what we have lost as Walker breeders, Tools for consistency. That's the camp i am in, not trying to re create an individual. I would like to know what a Conkey hound brings to the table(example) A Yadkin River Hound etc.....
Instead of a box of chocolates.

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Posted by HOBO on 11-01-2016 02:40 PM:

I think the problem is most, NOT all breed a female looking to make money off a litter of pups.

There use to be a couple that came into Coonhound Central chat room that openly said they hated Sackett Jr. Then turned righto around and said they bred to him several times because they knew they would make money off of the puppies.

IF I don't like a dog I'm sure not going to breed to it.

Making money off of a litter of pups is the last thing on my mind when I make a cross.

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-01-2016 02:54 PM:

Conrad not at all. I understand and appreciate you very much. Just a lot of different methods. I am the box of chocolate kind of guy. I like to think, select chocolates.
I have bred so few hounds there isn't a conkey hound. But I have studied coon hound pedigrees for over 50 years and there isn't much consistently anywhere.

We turn everything around to suit our needs and things that use to be one thing are something totally different today. I use to get an invitation to a wedding and when I got there expected to see a man and a woman getting married. Now you show up to a wedding and it may be a man marrying a man or a woman marrying a woman or 3 or 4 people getting married and it gets even more confusing when a man that use to be a woman is marrying a woman that use to be a man.
Same with our breeding tools. Talk about a box of chocolates. We have them in our breeding plans but over look them cause the truth hurts. Take breeding coefficient percentages. That was developed in the early 1900's not so show how many times you had LIPPER in a pedigree and how much your pups should be like him. They were developed to show the percentage of like genetics which actually put health limitations on the farmers herd. It showed the farmer when he needed to visit the neighbors bull and quit breeding to his own for health reasons even though it was pretty. Yes your can measure and breed bigger cattle that bring more more money. That is because they are on the dinner table before all the problems that show up by breeding this way. Don't take me wrong. I have a year old pup out there now that her dad and mom were out of the same dog. Zeb Again She was bred here from two of my dogs and they are nice hounds. I understand how it works, just don't like all the results. Breeders plan so hard they blind themselves to the results sometimes because of their ownership.

Here is a simple example maybe two I am going to throw out for you. UKC use to have 6 breeds of UKC coonhounds registered.
Plott, Redbone, Black and Tan, Blue Tick, English and Walker.
Now this is not stuff I dreamed up but read and studied. Take that list starting with the plott and finish with the walker. Now go to UKC's breeding records for males. The one with the smallest percentage of champions is the Plott and the ones with the largest percentage of champions is the walker. Now look at the breeding pool or genetic make up of the hounds. The plott and redbones have the smallest due to the color factor that removes a lot of blood from the gene pool. As the color restrictions are decreased like the walker the higher percentages of champions are produced. The walker is made up of many hounds with a large gene pool and that big box of chocolate.
Just look within the walker breed to prove it. Some of the top crosses were Harry males on sackett jr females. Two lines brought together for excellence. Bad Habit was maybe the best example of that with a lot of close seconds. Line breed bad habit and you think your are getting close to him but there hasn't been another one. Line breed Bone and you may fool yourself your getting close but never another Bone.
Conkeys breeding program is a box of chocolates like the one that produced the walker breed and dogs like Bone and Bad Habit. Call them Select Chocolates. Not to be confused with the deplorable ones. Combination of the best bred to the best. You say best of what. Best of doing something very simple most breeders can't get their dogs to do. Tree me two coon a night in a night hunt without all the mistakes and stupid stuff. Dogs will win most of their hunts just treeing two coon. I don't think that is too much to ask from a dog. Then again I look around and wonder.

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-01-2016 02:57 PM:

HOBO we haven't even touched on you yet. Your doing things the right way. I am just afraid your going to run out of time before the maximum results can be reached. Hope you live a long life and get to enjoy the road your paving.

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Posted by HOBO on 11-01-2016 03:06 PM:

I think you touched on me earlier, I like to think I breed for consistent litter. I want whoever gets one of my pups to be able to hunt them with their buddies and be proud of what's on the end of their leash and be able to go to town and hold their own. For the most part I think I've been able to achieve that so far.

Posted by mr taylor on 11-01-2016 03:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Bruce, I hope I am not misunderstood, It does not matter how Bone or Lipper Or Sackett Jr. were born, Like I said before I think God made them not man But what I want to focus on is trying to keep the great ones traits. Keep Family lines, I think that is what we have lost as Walker breeders, Tools for consistency. That's the camp i am in, not trying to re create an individual. I would like to know what a Conkey hound brings to the table(example) A Yadkin River Hound etc.....
Instead of a box of chocolates.

I know what you are getting at and i have been keeping a eye on the same thing, With all the females being bread to Bone and all the pups he has sired i have seen very little as far as keeping his blood going as to trying to maintain it as keeping it tight in the forum of line breeding or even in-breeding, Someone should put their thinking cap on because Bone is getting old and some of his pups are to and when its gone its gone and people will be on here asking why no one ever done anything to preserve his blood other than stored Semen, From what all he has done and what he has put in different females that has been bread to him i would be putting some grand daughters or nieces under him and go from there and if it worked to my liking i may tighten it up a little tighter and move on from that point, I would hate to see the end of Bone end with Bone .

Posted by deeprvr31 on 11-01-2016 03:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I think the problem is most, NOT all breed a female looking to make money off a litter of pups.

HOBO you hit the nail on the head...
WAY too many people are after the $$ and could care less about the quality of pups.
Me and my dad just bought a female pup out of Bone and GRNTCH Hardwood Molly. Molly is out of GRNTCH Hardwood Cornell and GRNTCH Deep River Crystal. If you will look in my signature you will see that we own Crystal. GRNTCH Hardwood Molly. We made the cross that Molly is from. Crystal is probably the best female we have ever owned. She is the same dog night after night. And I hope this pup off of Bone X Molly will turn out.

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-01-2016 05:34 PM:

I want to know one thing? Where is all the money I keep hearing people talk about.

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Posted by HOBO on 11-01-2016 06:51 PM:

I didn't say there was money, I said they think they'll make money.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-01-2016 07:01 PM:

LOL I got you.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 11-02-2016 12:52 AM:

Bruce,

Dog breeding is historically as much an art or talent than it has to do with being a genetic expert.

In my line of work, I have become very skeptical of anyone who claims to be an expert.

Yes, genetic studies provide clues for breeders, but push comes to shove most breeders don't use them. They use some of the best tools breeders have for 100's of years. A goal, selection criteria, and most importantly in depth family knowledge.

The problem is in depth family knowledge takes hard work, dedication, and a really long time. Just look at how old Hobo is getting.

Kidding a side, by breeding working dogs we are going against nature. Nature (genetics) favors variability, and we favor predictability. It was never supposed to be easy!

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Posted by GES on 11-02-2016 01:19 AM:

So what is the answer? I say that the most important aspect in canine breeding is SELECTION of the mating pair and matching traits as best possible. To do this, one has to hunt with the sire and the dam and actually know their characteristics. Imagine all of the hard work and coondog knowledge that is necessary to do that.

So I would like to know, what do you think is more important, pedigree matching or matching traits? And please notice, this is not an argument for breeding best-to-best. I wonder how successful the race horse breeders have been in creating champions. Their only trait to improve is running fast. [/B][/QUOTE]

Excellent post! I agree with your statement and conclusions 100%. I say matching traits is what is most important and SELECTION of those traits is the key. Again, I agree that the biggest obstacle to doing this is having FIRST HAND knowledge to evaluate those traits. IMHO you cannot do that from looking at titles or getting opinions from others.

GES

Posted by HOBO on 11-02-2016 03:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
Bruce,

The problem is in depth family knowledge takes hard work, dedication, and a really long time. Just look at how old Hobo getting

Me getting OLD???

Dang

Lol

Posted by yadkintar on 11-02-2016 10:58 AM:

Hobo they haven't legalized it here yet I don't smoke but the way I been feeling some ******** brownies might be the ticket make us feel better and really be able to concentrate of all aspects of canine breeding traits that and a big ole shot of B12 lol.

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 11-02-2016 11:32 AM:

I agree with what Larry said

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Posted by Kler Kry on 11-02-2016 03:03 PM:

Genetics

quote:
Originally posted by GES
So what is the answer? I say that the most important aspect in canine breeding is SELECTION of the mating pair and matching traits as best possible. To do this, one has to hunt with the sire and the dam and actually know their characteristics. Imagine all of the hard work and coondog knowledge that is necessary to do that.

So I would like to know, what do you think is more important, pedigree matching or matching traits? And please notice, this is not an argument for breeding best-to-best. I wonder how successful the race horse breeders have been in creating champions. Their only trait to improve is running fast.

Excellent post! I agree with your statement and conclusions 100%. I say matching traits is what is most important and SELECTION of those traits is the key. Again, I agree that the biggest obstacle to doing this is having FIRST HAND knowledge to evaluate those traits. IMHO you cannot do that from looking at titles or getting opinions from others.

GES [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. What I've observed is that the ability to objectively evaluate and select the right individual is the key to success. Having the littermate to an outstanding individual can be of zero value.

Posted by Kler Kry on 11-02-2016 03:04 PM:

Genetics

quote:
Originally posted by GES
So what is the answer? I say that the most important aspect in canine breeding is SELECTION of the mating pair and matching traits as best possible. To do this, one has to hunt with the sire and the dam and actually know their characteristics. Imagine all of the hard work and coondog knowledge that is necessary to do that.

So I would like to know, what do you think is more important, pedigree matching or matching traits? And please notice, this is not an argument for breeding best-to-best. I wonder how successful the race horse breeders have been in creating champions. Their only trait to improve is running fast.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-02-2016 03:35 PM:

Conrad in my box of chocolates I actually like two types.
I have some of the strongest competition blood flowing through one of my dogs there ever has been. The other male has the same competitive spirit, just a different type of hound. I call him the common dog for the common man. His pedigree is truly a box of chocolates and made up with some nice hounds and old blood in the 3 gen pedigree. Pups leave here and go to kids that have never coon hunted, they go to bear and hog hunters also and then also to some of the most serious competition hunters. That box of chocolate not only relates to my hounds but my friends that get them from me.
Maybe I should call this place the Chocolate Factory. lol

Here is the pedigree of one type of hound I have.

For those that say any dog can win a money hunt I take it a step further with my dogs to decrease that argument. The PCH in front of the dogs names mean they are Platinum Champs and have won more than $25,000 and I say they at least have to tree a couple coon to do that. 9 out of 15 dogs in my dogs 3 gen predgree are Platinum Champs. I have only seen one other dog with 9 Platinum Champs in their pedigree and that was a female that won the world last year and it finished her to platinum champion. This dog and his ancestors blood my be wanted by some and it may be hated by some. Thats life and I fully understand and respect everyones opinion. Pups from this line of dogs are somewhat different to start and train than other pups and I don't recommend them for the young person wanting to learn as much from a pup as it tries to teach the pup.
Now my real box of chocolates.
MONGO

He is all over the place with his pedigree. But there are a few things in common for the Title People. Mongo and every dog in that pedigree is a Grand Nite Champion. Mongo himself shows he has won just over $500 but with our limited ability have taken that close to $8,000 now. Thats what I want form any pup I keep from him. Being able to win with limited handler experience because the dog does it's part. Common dog for the common man, that can win.
I know the line of females I want to breed MONGO for my personal use. They are a strong in track, well built females and have big male dog mouths.
Here is a pedigree of the example I just mentioned.

Diva Picture

Now the female I have that I bred to Blaze are bred like him. Guess you could say holding that family pedigree together.
Lil Shine

Pic of Lil Shine

I have a year old out of her and Blaze that I am looking to hunting this winter.

I have one more female here I plan on breeding this fall. Just not sure if it will be Blaze of Mongo. She is from the Judge Dredd x Lot Lizzard Cross. For the title guys she is a Grand Night with 4 generation Grand night pedigree.

Life is like a box of Chocolates!!

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Posted by yadkintar on 11-02-2016 04:57 PM:

Bruce that flatrock thrasher dog is on the old female in the back yard and her two littermates bottom side they are all above average track dogs that are accurate. A freind of mine that had sackets ringo out of sacket Jr. and a tar rattler female bred a flat rock thrasher bred female to him twice all were the same way there's somthing to that old thrasher dog. Might just been a good mix.

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