UKC Forums - The Whole Bloodine Thing!

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- The Whole Bloodine Thing! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928464483)

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 10-15-2016 02:29 PM:

If you found someone that was bound and determined to do things the right way to maintain a good solid line of hounds the deck is stacked against him. I am talking about a line that the characteristics of the sire and dam is in the pups and that is maintained, generation after generation.
Lets talk Lipper. How many have every heard a true Lipper Mouth Hound on the tree. Now most of us if we took our dogs papers and got a 7 generation pedigree could find Lipper 4 or 5 times in the pedigree. Your dog sounds nothing like Lipper. He is there many times in the pedigree but the offspring now can't be recognized by his characteristics. Now consider the MOUTH is one of the easiest characteristics to see in a hound along with color or any other tangible trait. We are not even breeding and maintaining tangible traits of our hounds. How in the heck are we going to maintain all the intangible subjective ones that no three people can agree upon.
You spend your life breeding a certain dog to your standards and the vision in your head. You do a good job and the outcome is what you wanted. If the other 100,000 coon hunters were jealous, just didn't like them or couldn't win with one of your perfect dogs. What did you accomplish.
Like breeding race horses. You can breed the best looking, easiest trainable, easiest gate loading horse in the world. If they can't win a race what did you do. That goal of winning has put a damper on a lot of good breeding programs that were run right for the purpose to maintain certain characteristics.

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Posted by Doug A on 10-15-2016 02:42 PM:

These are all good points being brought up based on an excellent question. It reminded of a video/article I read on a Russian fox breeding experiment that was started in the late '50's and might still be going on today. They saw considerable change in the foxes behavior in only three generations of selective breeding and changes in their physical appearance in 8 generations. Here is a link: http://dai.ly/xwq3rs

Tough call if 4generations would be enough to suppress all coonhound instinct.

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 10-15-2016 02:55 PM:

Very interesting Doug, thanks for sharing.

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Posted by yadkintar on 10-15-2016 03:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rick brocious
I can assure you from experience Hobo don't only have good looking dogs they are also COONDOGS . Don't know what you mean about not getting hunted .

Was not talking about hobo s dogs not getting hunted at all I know he hunts hard and is very selective if he was closer I would hunt his stock of dogs I like the dohoneys bred dogs I liked the ones out of radar the best.

The not getting hunted part was about generations of dogs not getting hunted still passing on hunting characteristics two separate topics I should have separated it out.

Rains banjo Jr. is the dog I was talking about Kansas babe was one too.

Me and mr Mike dohoney have been friends a long time I have always liked his breeding.

Posted by CHEWBACH on 10-15-2016 03:30 PM:

lol

Yadkintar you know the dogs arnt getting worse its because the coon are getting smarter!! And it just looks like the breeding is the problem!! coon are just going to a higher school than what the dogs are!!lmao

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 10-15-2016 03:47 PM:

Here is an interesting article for breeders, these guy's have done it for couple hundred years, some of the best breeders there are. And yes it's the same on dogs. Just not an easy task

Why Use Line Breeding to Keep Your Stock's Traits Fixed?

Old school cockfighters have preserved several different breeds of chickens for a long time. During that time they maintained type and vigor to an unparalleled degree. The methods of breeding to maintain a champion breed actually involve INBREEDING to understand how to preserve a bloodline's traits.

A famous cocker, Tan Bark once said that “Good breeding is only a matter of intelligent selection of brood fowl…” (Tan Bark, Game Chickens and How to Breed Them, 1964, p. 27). The gamefowl breeder must ALWAYS select for vigor and type regardless of the breeding system in use. Old cockers always strove for prepotency. The goal of any system is to predict with reasonable accuracy the outcome of any particular mating.

For this reason, no gamefowl breeder worth his salt will consistently USE crossbreeding. Cross breeding is only a choice when the cocker has maxed out the potential of his Bloodline's traits and needs to infuse new traits that cannot be accessed except by cross breeding. Old records from breeders consistently indicate that when they do cross breed they do so using the same strain of fowl they were hoping to improve.

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 10-15-2016 03:54 PM:

Of course there will be ridicule and dismissal of these methods by modern experts. But for serious preservationists and small flock owners, gamefowl line breeding methods are tried and true as well as the surest ways to turn simple matings into serious breeding and systematic flock improvement. Traits of winning birds are FIXED or maintained over generations despite the books telling you that the traits will lose gas.

The most awesome thing about raising gamefowl is that the breeder can choose his own system of breeding to create your “own strain” which is a finely tuned mix of inbred fowl with the best traits of that line as the system will permit. And you can even experiment!

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 10-15-2016 03:55 PM:

Fire away boys lol

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Posted by Joe Mueller on 10-15-2016 04:56 PM:

Imo the all grand bs ran over the country coon dog. In order to sell pups for the right price they must be performanced super staked and have an all grand pedigree or buyers will go looking else where. Even coon hunters have killed the little man. Fact of the matter is this the hunter makes the dog a coon dog not the bloodline. The bloodline may have traits the hunter likes. But an all grand title means nothing unless that pup gets to a coonhunter. U will have better dogs dealing with good people than u will dealing with all grand pedigree.

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 10-15-2016 08:08 PM:

Joe you are right, hunting a dog hard makes a coon dog.
But to keep the traits a man wants, is just as hard work
Both are extremely important to the breed. I also think you are right about the other, we let our goals be outside things that do not affect breeding
Brood female? How many times have you heard that

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Posted by rob thompson on 10-15-2016 08:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Doug A
Part 2: Go ask the poodle breeders! Poodles were originally bred to retrieve ducks. I would bet its pretty tough to find a good duck dog in that breed. Or for that matter go ask anyone with a breed of dog that has only been shown/not used for their original purpose for generations. I believe the answer will be that every so often an individual dog will be able to do the job it was originally bred for but I wouldn't be surprised if for every good working dog you find there are a 100 that don't have a clue. I would think 4 generations of indiscriminate breeding would be just enough to turn coonhounds into couchhounds. We have plenty of couchhounds the way it is already!

uncle si uses a poodle for ducks.

Posted by HOBO on 10-15-2016 08:40 PM:

I didn't taken it as you talking about my stuff Yadkintar...

As far as Radar goes, I don't remember him.

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Posted by yadkintar on 10-15-2016 10:54 PM:

Dohoneys ringo I typed it wrong lol!! They were real leggy good track dogs and tree dogs. I was thinking about spring creek radar I liked them too wish I had some straws off some of that now.

Posted by HOBO on 10-15-2016 11:54 PM:

I think Ringo is the one Mike talks about winding coon like crazy. He said that he had seen Ringo wind a coon on a cast and they would turn him loose the other way all the other dogs would go the way they had pointed them bit Ringo would wheel around and go tree the one he had winded.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-16-2016 01:40 AM:

That's what I am trying to get at it just ain't coming out right those dogs of yours have that in their pedigree back in the day in the 3 and 4 hour hunts we all had dogs with that accurate locating ability the along came certain dogs and we all jumped ship time we figured out we made a huge mistake it was to late we lost it there is no shortage of coons to tree it's the faults these dogs got now days causing the low scores. But I and several others are working on it.

Posted by HOBO on 10-16-2016 01:44 AM:

My Hoss dog is pretty good at it, one of the best I've had at winding.

Posted by yadkintar on 10-16-2016 02:09 AM:

This little dog I am hunting now borderline don't have enough hustle for me but he gets under coons all around you and if them dogs are deep he might just get a coon behind them he has a lot of natural winding ability have had him strike out of the truck turn him loose and him tree it he gets a little further along I will make him hunt just a little deeper but I haven't seen some of his qualities in a long time.

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