UKC Forums - Squall rule and count down

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-- Squall rule and count down (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928459907)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-25-2016 04:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
you know as well as I do the countdown is just another handler tool to only take a quarter when the situation call for it.

Handlers don't have enough "tools" in UKC hunts. That is why the Pro handlers want to change the rules. They want to have more "tools" that they can use.
Jack, you are right. I can't compete with those young Pro's anymore. I got beat by one just last week that was using his "tools". They are just too quick and too smart for me.
Should we change our rules just to attract those youngsters to the sport or should they just learn to play by the rules that we have had for so many years. I see where there must be more than 200 old guys that have signed up their old Gr Nt Ch's to hunt at Autumn Oaks. That doesn't sound to me like we need a bunch of youngsters.
In theory all of the rule changes sound great. But in practice it is a different story. Do we all want to have to become lawyers just to be able to coonhunt?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-25-2016 05:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Let's face it there's a lot of young guys out there that won't hunt Ukc without the count down. The post on this thread so far are by the older crowd and some that don't even hunt anymore. What's gonna happen to Ukc when we're done.

Some of the people that don't want the change know they can't win with a count down.

When "we're" done, those young guys will be older and tired of that other kennel club and be ready to start hunting in UKC hunts.

And some of those guys that want the change know that they can't win without it.

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 08-26-2016 01:25 AM:

Richard, what's your definition of a "Pro handler"???

JMO, A good dog makes a handler look good, most of your BIG winning handlers ain't crooks, they are the folks that spends more time preparing there dog to win, I have drew several of the best handlers in the country this year & can't think of 1 that tried to use rule after rule trying to get people "out of the way"

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 08-26-2016 02:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
Richard, what's your definition of a "Pro handler"???

JMO, A good dog makes a handler look good, most of your BIG winning handlers ain't crooks, they are the folks that spends more time preparing there dog to win, I have drew several of the best handlers in the country this year & can't think of 1 that tried to use rule after rule trying to get people "out of the way"

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 08-26-2016 02:09 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
Richard, what's your definition of a "Pro handler"???

JMO, A good dog makes a handler look good, most of your BIG winning handlers ain't crooks, they are the folks that spends more time preparing there dog to win, I have drew several of the best handlers in the country this year & can't think of 1 that tried to use rule after rule trying to get people "out of the way"

Posted by high ridge on 08-26-2016 02:45 AM:

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Posted by Brian Jennewein on 08-26-2016 03:24 PM:

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-26-2016 04:17 PM:

Oh my goodness, I never said nor implied that a smart Pro handler that knows and uses all of his tools is a crook. I never said that being a good Professional handler was a bad thing. If you are one then by all means be proud of it. And they have a whole Professional Kennel Club with their own hunts just for you. But why do you want to come over and change the UKC rules? That is what I said.

Tony, I looked up the definition of a Professional Handler in the dictionary and they had your picture posted. On that other website, every time it has your name it says, "handler earnings...$16,000...right below it.

Posted by oklared on 08-26-2016 04:32 PM:

IF YOU EARN MONEY YOU ARE A PRO
IF YOU DO NO EARN MONEY YOU ARE A AMATURE JMO

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 08-26-2016 05:26 PM:

Maybe I missed it, but if the countdown happens to be installed, will first tree go to 100 instead of 125?

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 08-26-2016 05:34 PM:

I don't want to come over & change the rules, I'd just rather see the better dog get the credit on coons instead of a dog that backed 4 min late getting as much credit as the dog that treed the coon. It's changing the rules to benefit a solid consistent coondog that trees coons the fastest... I feel leaving the tree rule at 125 would be the best!

As far as a "Pro Handler" I'm not that, I just love the sport of coon huntin & enjoy what I do

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-26-2016 05:39 PM:

$16,000 in earnings, I bet that you really love it. You are either awfully good or have an awfully good dog. Be careful what you say. If Doc finds out how much you "love the sport" he might cut your pay.

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 08-26-2016 06:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
$16,000 in earnings, I bet that you really love it. You are either awfully good or have an awfully good dog. Be careful what you say. If Doc finds out how much you "love the sport" he might cut your pay.

He puts a lot of $ in the sport & loves to promote his dog but I can assure you I don't get a steady paycheck 😉

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-26-2016 06:09 PM:

We need more like him that are passionate about what they love.

Posted by mmarshall on 08-26-2016 06:54 PM:

If a dog trees 4 min after another dog and the dog that trees first gets 125 and the dog 4 min later gets 75 isn't the dog treed first getting rewarded for being first Already ?
And in thin coon one dog gos left one goes right the one that goes left ambushes and trees only coon in area at 700 dog right comes checks and trees after 4 min shut out on strike and would only get 25 tree for just plan old bad luck ?
Ukc gives the dog getting first tree a big bonus for treeing first already why do we need a rule to penalize the other dogs even more ?
Seems if I have a jelouse type independent dog hunting in thin coon this would be to my benefit but it won't change a thing if I got a good old first and first coon treer that will cover when needed in a area it can tree two or three coon in a 2 hr hunt
Just some questions I have
I'm on the fence on this one

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 08-26-2016 07:08 PM:

Mark, us thin coon country are the arm pit of the coon hunting realm, nobody cares about us but thanks anyhow. 😆

I guess that was also why I was curious about if the rule passes will first tree go to 100. If it's one of the other, I'm more in favor of keeping it as is, first tree already gets a 50 point boost, so then with a cover dog beating a man you're only left trying to alter strike rules for babblers and it appears that's on the table as well.

Posted by John B.Dalton on 08-26-2016 07:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
Richard, what's your definition of a "Pro handler"???

JMO, A good dog makes a handler look good, most of your BIG winning handlers ain't crooks, they are the folks that spends more time preparing there dog to win, I have drew several of the best handlers in the country this year & can't think of 1 that tried to use rule after rule trying to get people "out of the way"

Dont let brother richard fool you..I have seen him at enough super stake championships that a pick up truck shouldnt hold all his winnings

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Posted by John B.Dalton on 08-26-2016 07:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
He puts a lot of $ in the sport & loves to promote his dog but I can assure you I don't get a steady paycheck 😉

Tony if you dont get a steady paycheck you need to cut the doc off

..Keeping dogs in shape fed and watered and ready to travel at the drop of a hat should command a premium salary

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Posted by mmarshall on 08-26-2016 08:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Adam Wingler
Mark, us thin coon country are the arm pit of the coon hunting realm, nobody cares about us but thanks anyhow. 😆

I guess that was also why I was curious about if the rule passes will first tree go to 100. If it's one of the other, I'm more in favor of keeping it as is, first tree already gets a 50 point boost, so then with a cover dog beating a man you're only left trying to alter strike rules for babblers and it appears that's on the table as well.

Pkc rules seem to be more set up for thinner coon area and a less then idea weather conditions imo

Posted by Tim MACHA on 08-26-2016 08:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
If a dog trees 4 min after another dog and the dog that trees first gets 125 and the dog 4 min later gets 75 isn't the dog treed first getting rewarded for being first Already ?
And in thin coon one dog gos left one goes right the one that goes left ambushes and trees only coon in area at 700 dog right comes checks and trees after 4 min shut out on strike and would only get 25 tree for just plan old bad luck ?
Ukc gives the dog getting first tree a big bonus for treeing first already why do we need a rule to penalize the other dogs even more ?
Seems if I have a jelouse type independent dog hunting in thin coon this would be to my benefit but it won't change a thing if I got a good old first and first coon treer that will cover when needed in a area it can tree two or three coon in a 2 hr hunt
Just some questions I have
I'm on the fence on this one

`Honestly, I haven't seen that many 4 minute dogs. Usually, the handler is keeping his hands in his pockets for 4 minutes.

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Posted by mmarshall on 08-26-2016 09:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim MACHA
`Honestly, I haven't seen that many 4 minute dogs. Usually, the handler is keeping his hands in his pockets for 4 minutes.

Only time I really have witnessed it on a regular basic is when dogs get split up and you have to turn back in on a dog trailing in deep they get treed soon after and the dog covers
the guy with that jelouse deep and alone type really hate a dog that will tree there own and then cover there dog I've been the guy on both sides of that double edge sword
I'm hunting a female right now that is the jelouse type three hunts never less then first tree always deep and alone lost one cast so far dog covered her tree
In 4 min .9 miles away count down rule I win but he got 75 I lost witch I should of he got under more coon then she did is how I look at it
But that's her best chance to win is that style I don't think she would out score most good dogs if she had to beat them on strike track and tree speed

Posted by Adam Wingler on 08-26-2016 09:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
Pkc rules seem to be more set up for thinner coon area and a less then idea weather conditions imo

Right, but like ya said, that lonely sucker better get lucky and head the right direction right off the bat and/or have an uncanny nose.

Posted by Jack Bingham on 08-26-2016 10:13 PM:

Richard I see that you have $8600 by your name. You must be one of those pro handlers that your talking about.

Posted by Bretzel on 08-27-2016 01:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Let's face it there's a lot of young guys out there that won't hunt Ukc without the count down. The post on this thread so far are by the older crowd and some that don't even hunt anymore. What's gonna happen to Ukc when we're done.

Elvis I have been doing alright in the hunts but mostly in the other KC with a count down.

Richard what would be wrong with having some big time handlers as you call them to come over to UKC are you scared of them.

No one yet has been able to tell me why there dog deserves 75 after covering at 4:55. If there covering that late you need to do more work at home.

This is the kinda thinking that keeps the redbone breed suppressed instead of moving it forward. Don't expect different results when you do the same thing over and over.

It's hard to beat a dog that gets a piece of everything at 75 for covering everything instead of doing its own thing.

Some of the people that don't want the change know they can't win with a count down.

Let me start by saying a few things:
1- I am nowhere near as educated on most of these rules as most of you other fellas are
2- I have jacks thoughts above and I think he makes some good points and I am in NO WAY trying to poke at Mr. Bingham- from what I understand he has been at this a long time and I am respectful of that
3- although I go to hunts with the idea that I wanna win, and leave aggravated when I don't, I still go to have a good time and have only been in one case where I can say I did not have fun(other KC)
4- I have hunted ukc much more than the other KC and bc of that might be a little more biased to the current rules...I am comfortable with them- I will gladly hunt the other KC's but when it comes down to choosing one over the other bc on same night I would choose to attend the UKC hunt bc I can't quite get comfortable with the idea of a dog winning a cast/hunt with minus points
5- I don't know if it really matter what rules you change, add, replace, or subtract...I am one that thinks over time the cream will rise to the top- I understand where some rules might favor one dog and not be favorable for another dogs hunt style I am of the belief that the dog that gets under the most coins the most consistently is going the win the most hunt...ie...look at Cali- she has gotten it done in both multiple registries under 2 different sets of rules- I ain't gotta hunt with her to know she can't do that without treeing a substantially big pile of coons
BUT I just wanna take a minute to kinda play devils advocate on a few of the statements made above:
�do a lot of the young guys not hunt UKC bc UKC doesn't employ a countdown rule OR do a lot of young guys prefer to hunt the other KC bc they stand a chance of making more money or being better rewarded for their efforts
�would anyone want the 75 tree points if their dog got 2nd tree 2 minutes into the time? How far can a dog run in 2-3 minutes? I understand the need for a 5 minute time but I hunt in thin coon- I have seen some good dogs be .8 to a mile from a dog that strikes and trees quick...said dog that is far away isn't struck in and other dog strikes(whether or not dog far away is wrong for turning around and coming back is a whole other argument/discussion and I would say is each owners preference)- in this case, dog that is far away wants in on action and covers distance to tree at say the 4:55 point of the time- what if dog far away was only 200 yds out when close dog trees and far away dog comes in to tree at 1:30...what's really the difference here? The only difference I see is how far away the other/far away dog was, correct? Maybe I am missing something on that
�some people might think the way of thinking about suppressing the redbone breed is strictly opinion- I don't know if it is suppressing the redbone breed or not- to my knowledge the dog that trees the most coon the quickest in either registry is typically the dog that wins the most- don't they? So how would UKC vs PKC rules be supressing the breed- how would one of them be moving the breed forward more than the other- we all still want a dog that trees the most coon the quickest right? So I ASK: How is the rules and thought process of someone not wanting to change UKC rules suppressing the breed?
�and do some people Not want the change bc they know they can't win with a countdown OR do some people WANT the change bc they know they can't win without a countdown

Guys I am open minded and like I said probably a little more biased to preferring the UKC hunts- main reason being I just cannot get comfortable with the idea of a dog winning a hunt with minus points, but that's not what this discussion is about. I don't think young guys prefer to hunt PKC bc of the rules, I think they prefer other KC's at times bc of better payouts-

Good discussion and as I said from the first- no offense to Mr. Bingham or anyone who shares his preferences- I don't really know where I stand except that I am constantly wanting an improved dog and if I have one like what I want I should be able to win hunts in any KC as long as my dog is doing his/her job.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 08-27-2016 05:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Richard I see that you have $8600 by your name. You must be one of those pro handlers that your talking about.

I used to be when I could keep up. As I said, I have nothing against Pro handlers and I greatly admire a bunch of them. I hunt as many or more local PKC hunts as I do UKC.

What the rule changes boil down to is.......
If you believe that a dog should be completely 100% independant and refuse to back another dog then you should be for the squall and tree countdown rule changes. If you think that a dog should tree their own or be first but it is allright to back another dog also when they get beat then you should be against the rule changes. It is as simple as that. Is it allright for dogs to pack or do we need to breed and or train them to be 100% independant? Without the tree countdown, the dog that trees one by itself and one with another dog can beat Mr Independant.

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