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-- Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928451726)

Lol. I've only been to two hunts ever and both times was asked to judge and guide. Neither was local to me. They were in two different states. Rightfully I declined because I barely know the rules.

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Originally posted by howie
I understand what your saying Jim. I guess what I'm saying is if I am the master hound,I choose my judges. Judge should always be first to walk into the tree. Someone bring a ? Back like that your always gonna go with your judges decision. That's the reason we as master hound hand pick our judges.

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Re: Re: Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

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Originally posted by Billy Beckham
How did you beat him into the tree by 30 yards?

Remember there is always three sides to a story, yours, theirs and the truth.

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Josh Daniels

Points check confirms that both of those dogs were grands when their owners checked the "champion" box on the entry slip.

The male finished 5/6/16 at my home club, and the female finished 5/13/16. Both owners were well aware of their dogs status, as were the club officials. You shouldn't go around bragging about making grand one day, then enter NiteCH class the next just to "stack the deck". Lying on an entry slip is falsification of an event related document, and "stacking the deck" is synonymous for "conspiring to cheat in order to improve the standing of another dog". Both offenses are outlined on page 115 in the rulebook under Category 1 misconduct.

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Josh Daniels

Re: Re: Re: Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

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Originally posted by shorecooner
Because he's too out of shape to keep up, so when you draw out with him, you have to move along at a snails pace. When I heard my dog squeal, I got to the tree as quick as I could.

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__________________
Billy Beckham
618-214-0065

PKC CH, GRNITECH Beckham's Hillbilly Bones

Re: Re: Re: Re: Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

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Originally posted by Billy Beckham
You must not understand the rules. Cast stays together, stop complaining

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__________________
Home of;

Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch. Gr.WCh. Pr. McMillans Blue Crystal
Ntch. GrCh. Pr. McMillans Blue Magic
Gr.Nt.Ch. Pr. McMillans Blue Hawk
Nt. Ch. Pr. McMillans Blue Rage
all are gone now but will NEVER BE FORGOTTEN


CH. PR. MCMILLANS TREE ROCKIN BRANDY
CH. PR. MCMILLANS MIDNITES STINGIN SADIE

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Grand Nite Ch's in a Nite Ch cast ???

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Originally posted by rmcmillan
I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THE CAST STAYING TOGETHER. BUT HIS COMPLAINT IS LEGIT IF IT HAPPENED. IF THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS ENTERED THE WRONG CLASS IT WAS WRONG.

BUT IN THE END IF YOU FEEL THIS WAY YOU SHOULD HAVE FILED A FORMAL COMPLAINT BEFORE HUNT WAS OVER.

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Josh Daniels

I may be able to shed some light on this. The opportunity to move up to the next higher category once a participant knows they have fulfilled the requirements for a degree is just that...a courtesy and an opportunity. One most people will not turn down! But dogs that fulfill the requirements for a degree are not required to move up until they have been notified by UKC and receive their new degree. There are some good examples above about why they are not required to move up based mostly around the fact the dog doesn't have the points they think it has.

Once an owner has been notified and receives the new degree they can no longer choose to enter the lower category. It's not an option and UKC would take corrective measures against dogs that are entered that way. But in the case above, neither of the two individuals would have received their new degrees in that amount of time so no corrective action will be taken in a case like this. I say that qualifying my statement that the information given is correct.

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If we're not suppose to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat?

Thanks for your reply Todd. I'll keep that in mind.

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Originally posted by Coonhound Advisor
So the term “character above reproach” doesn’t just apply to licensed officials. It applies to each and every one of us. If you have a total disregard for it, then this sport is better off without you.

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Originally posted by Coonhound Advisor
Five or ten years from now, we will have forgotten the dog that got an undeserved win, but we certainly won’t forget the face of a dishonest handler.

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Josh Daniels

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Originally posted by shorecooner
Thanks for your reply Todd. I'll keep that in mind.

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If we're not suppose to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat?

Todd I haven't seen this in a long time but when I did it was both times at a big hunt where they entered a bunch of dogs to run interference for the dog they wanted to win now as a moh and the entering procedures we have how would you know till after the fact in other words y'all would have to catch it up there.

Well is it a dead cast or does the first eligible dog move up?

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Todd I haven't seen this in a long time but when I did it was both times at a big hunt where they entered a bunch of dogs to run interference for the dog they wanted to win now as a moh and the entering procedures we have how would you know till after the fact in other words y'all would have to catch it up there.

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Josh Daniels

Don't quote me but I would say after the infraction was exposed the next high point dog in the cast would be awarded the win unless anouther cast had a better score I would say tho back when it meant somthing to have a stud dog this occurred more now if you got a good dog it's more profitable to hunt for $$$$$ you can win more in one night than you can make at the house in 6 months jmo.

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Originally posted by msinc
Let me make sure I got this right...you scratched a dog as the aggressor in a fight. The rest of the cast called it to a vote and voted down the call you made. Did you put a question mark on the card and take it to the MOH????
The judge is supposed to be first to the tree, and it sounds like you were. You saw the aggressor in action and scratched it. It was voted down, but if you questioned it and took it to the MOH the guys that voted it down would have to explain why that didn't happen when they didn't see it. This is of course if you have a MOH that is doing his job. I am not saying it still couldn't go that way, just that it sounds like you didn't take this as far as you could have.
The other handlers could have seen it all from 30 yards away, but did they say that to the MOH??? If three other handlers are saying they saw it all and are in direct dispute of your story then the MOH might have to go along with scratching both dogs. If they admit to not having seen anything but the fight and just don't like your call as the judge then he might rule in your favor.
My question is if a dog gets entered in a lower class and wins and then UKC realizes it does the next score get the win??? Or no because the cast winner was wrong to begin with for even being there????

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When a HUNTING JUDGE has a dog involved in a dogfight and he scratches only the other guys dog......AND 3 out of 4 vote to overturn that judges ruling, there's not an honest MOH anywhere gonna overturn that cast vote. And with good reason. If three votes can't overrule a hunting judge and make it stick, then they might as well just hand the win slip to the hunting judge and save everyone else's time.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Here's another good quote from the Coonhound Advisor that I'll be keeping in mind.

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Originally posted by Coonhound Advisor
There are a few different ways for clubs to handle problem individuals. One way would be to appoint a non-hunting judge on the cast. Another option the club has is to refuse the individuals entry. Obviously, you have tried a non-hunting judge without eliminating the problem. It sounds like you have no other options other than to refuse the individuals entry.

The right to refuse entry is a good option for a club to exercise if needed. Not only does it show that the club will not tolerate participants who want to consistently stir up trouble but it also shows other participants that the club will do something about individuals that do so. Participants will continue to come to your club events if they know the club does everything they can to insure everyone gets treated fairly. Clubs that do nothing about problem individuals will more than likely see a drop in entries at their events.

It is the local club management that has the right to refuse entry. It is not the decision of the Master of Hounds unless an individual appears to be under the influence of alcohol or un-prescribed drugs.

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Josh Daniels

Josh, the right to refuse entry would solve a ton of problems in this sport but I fully understand the difficulty in facing someone and saying "we don't want you here".

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Originally posted by JiM
Josh, the right to refuse entry would solve a ton of problems in this sport but I fully understand the difficulty in facing someone and saying "we don't want you here".

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Josh Daniels

Shorecooner, I have heard the other side of the story and one of the dogs that was on your cast, the owner called Monday and UKC only has records of 4 wins so by all account he is still a nite champion, and when you were telling your story, you left out the part that I was told about you leaving the guide who had rode with you in the woods and not giving him a ride back to the clubhouse and I also heard something about you breaking into a clubhouse to get the paperwork to fill a handler's misconduct form. I don't know if any of this is true because I wasn't there but if you are going to tell a story tell the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Before leaving the woods I made sure the guide was ok with riding with the other handlers. Even offered to stay, or give him a ride back to the club. Then I thanked him for taking me hunting, shook his hand and left.

I have several misconduct forms in a binder that I carry to our club meetings and hunts. Not too hard to come by. And If I needed to get in the club, I wouldn't need to break in considering I have the key in my pocket. It's easy enough for anyone to do a points check, and if you've won an event at my home club recently, your dogs information is in my records.

And by all means, as far as UKC knew on Monday morning, that dog was still a NiteCH. I know, and the owner you talked to knows, the dog was a grand when entered on 5/14/16. The dates I posted earlier will check out to be correct when the event reports are filed.

If your buddy has any other false allegations he'd like to air, just tell him to sign on and say it himself

Thanks! And good day to you sir.

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Josh Daniels

Josh

I admire your spunk! I am with you regarding the incident as an attempt to run interference- I do not think for a moment that the parties involved were not aware of their dogs status! Truth hurts at times but stick to your conviction regarding this matter. Honor is something that is earned- certainly lacking by a lot of folks this day and time. You may not get the results you want from UKC , but at least you called their hand for the tactic they used. Honesty is Always the best policy.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Re: Josh

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
I admire your spunk! I am with you regarding the incident as an attempt to run interference- I do not think for a moment that the parties involved were not aware of their dogs status! Truth hurts at times but stick to your conviction regarding this matter. Honor is something that is earned- certainly lacking by a lot of folks this day and time. You may not get the results you want from UKC , but at least you called their hand for the tactic they used. Honesty is Always the best policy.

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Josh Daniels

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Originally posted by shorecooner
Before leaving the woods I made sure the guide was ok with riding with the other handlers. Even offered to stay, or give him a ride back to the club. Then I thanked him for taking me hunting, shook his hand and left.

I have several misconduct forms in a binder that I carry to our club meetings and hunts. Not too hard to come by. And If I needed to get in the club, I wouldn't need to break in considering I have the key in my pocket. It's easy enough for anyone to do a points check, and if you've won an event at my home club recently, your dogs information is in my records.

And by all means, as far as UKC knew on Monday morning, that dog was still a NiteCH. I know, and the owner you talked to knows, the dog was a grand when entered on 5/14/16. The dates I posted earlier will check out to be correct when the event reports are filed.

If your buddy has any other false allegations he'd like to air, just tell him to sign on and say it himself

Thanks! And good day to you sir.

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__________________
Home of;

Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch. Gr.WCh. Pr. McMillans Blue Crystal
Ntch. GrCh. Pr. McMillans Blue Magic
Gr.Nt.Ch. Pr. McMillans Blue Hawk
Nt. Ch. Pr. McMillans Blue Rage
all are gone now but will NEVER BE FORGOTTEN


CH. PR. MCMILLANS TREE ROCKIN BRANDY
CH. PR. MCMILLANS MIDNITES STINGIN SADIE

I am amazed that some of you would totally disregard the rules because you have a feeling or have an opinion. The rules are printed as intended.

I hope those of you that have this disregard never volunteer to judge. You guys are the problem.

I wasn't there and my friend doesn't get on the computer and I am not taking either side because I don't have a dog in this fight but I am hearing a lot of different stories and just saying if you are going to tell something make sure you tell it all.