UKC Forums - Has anyone noticed anything different about the redbone breed the past few years?

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-- Has anyone noticed anything different about the redbone breed the past few years? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928447612)

Posted by cooter_hunter on 12-16-2016 05:04 PM:

I couldn't say if they are getting better or not but I agree with Brent I think 20 years ago someone had a few nice ones and pushed em in a few hunts, but now the good ones are just getting in the right hands. guys who will pay whatever it takes to get their dog at every hunt, and hire handlers that do nothing but coon hunt. Which brings the big winning handlers who are wanting the next big redbone which helps promote the breed a ton! I think they're getting more popular, which in turn will give you more winners...not that the dogs aren't any better, that i don't know, but everyone who had a good one 20 years ago won't say they've ever had one better it seems. But I think the more good hands redbones land in the more winners we will see

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Posted by Chris Snyder on 12-17-2016 12:42 AM:

I am a little worried

My concern is that the people that jacked up their original breed are going to jack up mine. Am I not going to be able to find a Redbone in 15 years that will tree a coon like I think a Redbone should?

Not trying to be a Redbone snob. Just worried I might lose my favorite breed of dog and have to go rebuild the Walker breed after they all move to the Reds. LOL

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-17-2016 01:40 AM:

Aren't you the same guy that used to talk about dogs having a bunch of "chrome" all of the time? I also see where you changed your "signature". What in the world happened?

Posted by Chris Snyder on 12-17-2016 02:48 AM:

Richard

You have me mistaken for someone else. I am a purist. By the book all the way.

I figured a signature change was in order since my lineup has changed. Not sure what you mean by, what in the world happened.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 12-17-2016 08:35 AM:

Re: I am a little worried

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Snyder
My concern is that the people that jacked up their original breed are going to jack up mine. Am I not going to be able to find a Redbone in 15 years that will tree a coon like I think a Redbone should?

Not trying to be a Redbone snob. Just worried I might lose my favorite breed of dog and have to go rebuild the Walker breed after they all move to the Reds. LOL

By jacked up....do you mean breed redbone with the traits it takes to win against the other breeds?
Or are you referring to all the cross breed talk that has been beat to death ever since Bellar's Get Ahead Little Red?
I think the change with UKC put an end to changing the redbone breed...or any other breed by single registering half breeds...which I thought was the right move.
But if your talking about changing some lines within the breed to make them more competitive and better equipped to compete...and win in top level competition....well what's wrong with that?
I'm kind of a purist also...
If I wanted to hunt a walker...I would buy a walker. I never thought it was right that half breeds could be single registered as redbones just because they look the part when we know they are in fact 50% walker or another breed.
What makes the redbone breed isn't just the color...it's traits common to this breed. Traits that set it apart from other breeds. A couple good ones are accuracy and lay up ability....and a couple bad ones are less drive and competitiveness on average. I don't want to turn the redbone breed into the walker breed....I want to breed redbones that can compete with and beat top walkers and top dogs from any breed in competition. I think it's absolutely possible...and I feel like we are seeing the signs here and there that something is changing in the competitive side of redbones.I guess time will tell whether it's just coincidence...or a paradigm shift in how we are breeding redbones...but I think a lot of people are changing the way they think about redbones and competition and they are making adjustments to their breeding programs accordingly. Look how many pedigrees are showing strong proven reproducing females who were also proven winners. If winners are what you want to produce....then the odds are....they will probably come from long lines of winners. I think the mindset has changed and people are starting to expect more when they by a redbone pup or breed to a stud dog...and I think that's good for the breed. We should never accept that redbones are just not as good as other breeds in competition...and we should all try to make each generation of redbones better than the last.....and I think that's been happening more and more as breeders are getting more and more serious about producing top level hunt winners. Good luck to everyone in 2017...let's hope it's a great year for the redbones!

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-17-2016 01:41 PM:

Chris, it wouldnt be the first time that I was mistaken.
In my humble opinion, yes the Redbone Breed is changing. But then all of the coon hound breeds are changing. Whatever happened to the old timey hound dawg? They have even changed the spelling. There is a lot more emphasis being placed on drive, independence and get treed. Gone are the big pretty bawl mouths, cold noses and super accuracy. I don't hear of anyone breeding for "brains" anymore. Everyone seems to be breeding for hunt winners. When was the last time that you saw an ad for a stud dog that said that he was smart and a real pleasure to hunt? All you see are a stud's hunt wins. Just remember, one man's "jacked up" might be another man's competitive.

Posted by Chris Snyder on 12-17-2016 02:11 PM:

Changes

Shane, since the first time I got a Red, I've never owned one that lacked the traits to compete with other breeds. Not a problem. So I guess I don't see the change there.

By jacked up I mean this...if the breed they were hunting was so good, what happened? Did they have a part in making it something they wanted to leave by chasing that brass ring? I welcome growth in the RB breed, but like you do not want to lose those RB traits.

What keeps me coming back for more and optimistic about the future (and the original intent of this post until Richard stirred the pot) is the quality of the females that breeders are using now and the ease in which pups start now. I think those things are two major improvements.

I would like to see more track speed and competitiveness as well.

Posted by Chris Snyder on 12-17-2016 02:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Chris, it wouldnt be the first time that I was mistaken.
In my humble opinion, yes the Redbone Breed is changing. But then all of the coon hound breeds are changing. Whatever happened to the old timey hound dawg? They have even changed the spelling. There is a lot more emphasis being placed on drive, independence and get treed. Gone are the big pretty bawl mouths, cold noses and super accuracy. I don't hear of anyone breeding for "brains" anymore. Everyone seems to be breeding for hunt winners. When was the last time that you saw an ad for a stud dog that said that he was smart and a real pleasure to hunt? All you see are a stud's hunt wins. Just remember, one man's "jacked up" might be another man's competitive.

Richard, how many young kids at the coon club do you figure can skin a coon in less than a few minutes? I bet it's rare. Some probably have never skinned one. They are pure competition hunters. When is the last time you saw a bailing twine dog lead at a hunt?

Point is, competition hunter and coon hunter used to be synonymous. Now it seems that those that walk both paths are pretty rare and you are either one or the other.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-17-2016 03:11 PM:

Sorry that I got confused, but it happens a lot lately. There used to be a guy that said that you couldn't have a hot rod without some chrome but I can't remember who it was. I guess that it was a long time ago.

Posted by B Weatherford on 12-17-2016 05:59 PM:

Agree Chris

You said more track speed and competitiveness. Couldn't agree more. If I had to pick of those two I would Choose the competitive. By me saying this. Richard, before you ask for a meaning of it. Lol. I think drive and heart are apart of competitiveness. If I see a dog not want to go when I come out of door or quit on me while out. This is an example of something not to cross Male or Female. Being injured is not in this or illness. I have hunted with a few that were injured and would struggle out of the box and want to go. That is heart. The drive is in my opinion is the dog that will go until he makes you quit. Pulling the end of that lead still wanting to be let go. Busting out of that dog box like it was the first drop. Only to find out we are home. Are these kind of dogs the laid back porch dogs or are they a little more aggravating type. Might bark a little. More hyper. I think so. Can you get to much of this. I think so. They would be the ones that can't figure out when to Shut up and who the boss is. Or the ones that continue to pull your guts out on a lead after being corrected more than enough. Our breed is on the rise. More constant numbers doing the same thing is proof. Keep it up all.

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Posted by Travis O. on 12-17-2016 06:21 PM:

I typically stay quiet on this board but I'll add my 2 cents since I'm cooped up in the house due to an ice storm.
1. I believe that today's redbones are as good as any breed out there but we have smaller numbers..
2. Some dogs are slower than others, lazy, tree slick, trashy, etc... The same can be said for all of the other breeds as well.
3. I personally don't want more people hunting a redbone, I like being the underdog. The more people hunt a redbone, the less rewarding it is to have a good one.
4. "when was the last time you saw a stud advertising BRAINS?" I've stressed that about my particular dogs over any other trait.
5. More people raising redbones isn't necessarily a good thing because there are very few that will cull the bad traits. Those traits would include a dog that won't come out of the box to go hunting.

I'm finished ranting now. Good luck to everyone hunting a good redbone this year.

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Posted by Don Barnett Sr on 12-17-2016 08:16 PM:

Redbones now day's

I for one think we are going in the right direction as a breed. I have hunted red's for 30 years. I have had the opportunity to own some really nice hounds over that span of time. As far as better dog's now day's. I think the hounds in the spotlight today aren't a lot, if any better than the dog's of the past. But the increased attraction to the breed is putting more good dog's out there. To me that's good for us all.
Sure, there are some frauds, cheap titled dogs, and some plan out liars out there. But we have more ways to research a stud dog before we make a choice for those good females.
Let's keep doing a lot of homework on our breeding programs and reach the goals we have set for our bred.
Keep um in the brush.

Posted by Tim MACHA on 12-18-2016 01:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Whatever happened to the old timey hound dawg? They have even changed the spelling. There is a lot more emphasis being placed on drive, independence and get treed. Gone are the big pretty bawl mouths, cold noses and super accuracy. I don't hear of anyone breeding for "brains" anymore. Everyone seems to be breeding for hunt winners. When was the last time that you saw an ad for a stud dog that said that he was smart and a real pleasure to hunt? All you see are a stud's hunt wins. Just remember, one man's "jacked up" might be another man's competitive.

Now I see where I have got left in the dust. I am hunting the pretty bawl mouth dogs that are a pleasure to hunt.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 12-18-2016 05:20 AM:

I know there are a lot of pleasure hunters in the redbone breed...maybe a higher percentage than in other breeds. I have never been much of a pleasure hunter....and never claimed to be. I hunt 90% of the time alone and when others see my dogs in action...it's usually in competition. When I am not in a hunt...I am preparing my dogs for hunts. I do get a lot of pleasure out of seeing good dog work....even if I am the only one out there to see it...
I always try to judge the breed by the averages that I think I see at any particular snap shot in time. I have been in competition redbones since 1991 so I can look back at certain time periods and try to see or remember what it felt like at the time. Where was the average redbone in competition standings on a particular year or 2-3 year span.I know there have always been good redbones...some in the past were maybe better than most today....but you can't judge a breeds progress by cherry picking a few exceptional specimens. Those were rare 25 years ago...and still are today. But I feel something different today than I have in the past. I see more examples of the average redbones getting better than they used to. One thing I don't see is near as many people breeding any old redbone female and flooding the market with pups. Trust me...this used to be a big problem. Look at the old blood studs from the late 80's to the late 90's....400 to nearly 1000 pups registered....
So many junk females were bred that you cannot find a single redbone stud with over 400 pups that could top the 5% range on the reproducers list.
Over the past decade...and mainly the last half of that...I see breeders being much more selective and trying to breed better and better females. Even though there are less pups being produced...they are of higher quality On average.
I also see many more people from other breeds...mainly big winning handlers wanting to try a redbone pup. I guess maybe some might be guys who are not satisfied with their breed...but many feel like they have been very successful in their breed...and want to see if they can do the same in the redbone breed. I welcome them all. I think the more experienced hounds people we can get starting, training and handling redbones in competition...the more complete picture we can see of the breeds progress over time. I get irritated when I hear people say that redbones are just as good as other breeds...but we just don't enter them as much. Well, bologny....I'm not saying it doesn't happen sometimes....but there is a lot of that in other breeds also. People won't enter if they don't think they have much chance of winning...and that's a fact.
The guys with top redbones who know they have a dog that can win usually show up and do so. The fact is....if there were plenty of top redbones who could win....we would see more people switching breeds and hunting a redbone. Guys who like to win will go with the breeds that give them the best chance of doing so....and that ain't been us for a long time. But, I think we are turning a corner...and getting a lot more interest from outsiders who maybe can see what some of us to close to it cant....that redbones are doing a lot more winning at the top level the past couple years than in most years before that. I hope it continues...

Posted by Richard Lambert on 12-18-2016 10:51 PM:

Now that last post I can agree with wholeheartedly. Why didn't you just start with that one?

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