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Posted by jerhovt on 02-16-2016 05:40 PM:

All this being said I also wonder a dog that does nothing until 1.5 years old but has never been taught how to trail and tree goes out one night and does it like a finished dog now wouldnt that be natural ability but the dog just matured later?

__________________
Hounds I own
PR LT Redcoat Wait Till Sundown(Dual Grand T-Top Dark Timber Moose X Longtrail Redcoat Reaper)

PR Long Trail Redcoat Lucky Walter (Dual GR T-Top Dark Timber Moose xSML Dark Timber Bobbie Ann) co owner Ron Wolters

PR Long Trail Redcoat Reaper(GRCHPR Hershs Huntin Red 90/4 Life Gun HTX X CH PR Stone&Redcoat DBL Moon Kate II) co owner Ron Wolters

Hounds Im hunting
PR Soggy Bottom Dark Timber Addy : owners Buck Ratliff/Mike Laster

NTCH GRCH Dark Timber Red Angus : owners Buck Ratliff and Myself

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-16-2016 05:45 PM:

Re: Good Thread

quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Mike
I have questions too.

Should we keep pups in a pen til they are 8 - 12 months old.....never mess with them.......then take them out 2 times to the woods and they should track and tree a coon? If they don't, should we just cull them on the spot?

Just curious. I guess I'm thinking if they are natural......we should not need to let them run loose on farms either when they are pups.

Personally I dont think there is a specific age where a dog who is a natural is ready to take off and start. I have seen some at 5-6 mo and some who didnt start till they were ready at 12-16 months. A pup will start when its ready and thats the problem that frustrates most people and causes them to start trying to pressure the pup to start before it has shown its ready to. I have seen pups that sat in a pen till they are a year old...start their first night out.
I have seen pups that were drug to the woods from the time they were 4 mo old until the owner gave up at a year old be given away to someone who then later started the pup at 14 or 15 months and it took right off.
As i have said...i usually dont try to "start" them before 6-8 months...but some are just not ready till 10-12 mo or older. The age they start has nothing to do with how good they will eventually become...but might be important to a breeder who wants to produce early starting pups.
I like to take my pups for walks at least a couple times a week from 3 to 6 mo of age if possible...it makes it easier to start them if some of their curiosity about the woods has already been satisfied during frequent excursions...

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-16-2016 05:46 PM:

Thanks Shane and Mark, that is what I am looking for... good advice or training methods from trainers who have used them. Here is a good (tongue in cheek) illustration. Is this natural instinct or training? These pups are about 5 weeks old. I did this more for myself than for the pups. I was bored and just playing with them but was also looking for a little natural instinct and a little leadership from them. Is this the wrong thing to do? Is there really a "right" or "wrong" way to start them? Surely we all realize that taking anything to the extreme is wrong.

It progressed to this at 7 weeks old.....

Posted by jerhovt on 02-16-2016 05:48 PM:

I dont work with young dogs much on drags and cage coon but I like them to at least know what a coon smells like before I let them loose in the woods or should they be born knowing what a coon smells like?
Im full of questions

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-16-2016 05:54 PM:

Mr Hyde, you have started quite a few young dogs that went on to become winners. How do you start/train your pups? (or are you keeping your secrets to yourself)

Are coonhunters like fishermen? They don't want to tell/show anyone their secrets. I know that there are a lot of pup trainers out there that are reading these posts.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-16-2016 06:14 PM:

I think an important thing to keep in mind here...and I know this is going to ruffle a few feathers...but it needs to be said anyway.
Its important to remember that a dog wont start till its ready to....
BUT....you can teach (train) a dog to mimic (me too) other dogs at a young age...and boy oh boy does that cause big problems later in that dogs life!
What I mean is...if a pup isnt ready to start on its own just through being exposed to the woods, a hot track, or running up on a coon...
A "trainer" can often get this pup to mimic or play follow the leader with other dogs through peer pressure.
One might think...well what difference does it make? If the dog is now treeing then it worked....wrong!
Most of these dogs that are started this way, before they are ready to start on their own are just imitating the lead dogs or the pack they are ran with.
Sure you see pics of them treeing and maybe even go there and see them tree with other dogs...then you get them home and they wont tree on their own. So then you start hunting them with a coon dog and they look good...they appear to trail and tree with the old dog every time but everytime you split them off they stop and look back for their leader....the one who always does the work. Its hard to turn most dogs started this way around because following a leader has become habit to them through constant repetition.
Now I am not calling anyone out or trying to cause trouble. I have seen dogs "trained" like this for years and years...and a few do have enough natural instinct and competetiveness bred in that they over come that early habit forming training and go on to make a good dog...but most will never be able to break that habit! I say this because I want to see this breed be the best it can be...and this practice is bad for the breed...any breed!
If your going to work dogs on cage coons, at least do it alone so that the pup isnt just following another dog repeatedly. Yes its exciting to see a pack of young dogs treeing...but only one of them treed without the help of the others...the rest are just following the pack.
I know some promote the cage training in a pack method...and they hold up a few that went on to actually make coon dogs and even win some as examples of its success...but what about the other 80-90% of the ones who you never hear of again?
I stopped doing this 25 years ago because of the side effects and problems it caused later. Ever since then, i may only start 2-3 pups a year...but I have a nearly 100% success rate of the ones I start making solid coon dogs and earning titles and winning big hunts...but I make sure I do my homework and start with a well bred pup who has what it takes inside when I start it.
So do your homework when it comes to starting and training methods...some sound great, look good in the pictures...but other methods usually turn out a lot higher percentage of the kinds of redbones most of us want to hunt...solid coon dogs that can win in competition.
This post isnt aimed at or a swipe at any one person...its just my opinion of what I consider a poor training practice that doesnt help our breed and in fact can add to the dogs problems and owners frustrations later on down the line. There are lots and lots of well meaning "trainers" out there doing this because old so and so said it works...and on the surface it appears to get pups to start treeing in many cases....but upon closer inspection...many appear to just be imitating the lead dog...so we have to look at how the majority of those pups are down the road.
Personally, I dont know of anyone who consistently trains their own pups and wins at the top level who starts pups like that because it creates so many problems for them on down the line.
Bottom line is...do we want to interupt the natural coarse of a pups development which may very well have put it on a coarse to be a leader and a winner....by "teaching" it a new trick like follow the leader repeatedly until it becomes a habit that most will never be able to break?
Well, thats just my opinion...for those who want to hear all sides...good luck!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-16-2016 06:23 PM:

Shane, as I said, thanks. I/we are looking for different opinions. The way that you explain it, it makes a lot of sense. I myself am glad that some people are not afraid to "ruffle some feathers". How else are we going to learn and form our own opinions. I am like those me too dogs. I have very few original thoughts. I just take from many different sources and form them into my "own" opinion.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-16-2016 06:47 PM:

breed good ones

Richard , I'm just lucky... I owned a really good female once that got her traits from her Daddy and she somehow was able to reproduce some of those good traits. Almost every dog that got titled out of this kennel was NOT hunted by me. They were sold as pups and their owners finished them.
As for me, I won't keep a young dog that doesn't show natural ability. When I take it hunting they must want to go. When another dog opens I expect the young dog to want to go see what it's about. When there is a coon rear by they better be searching everywhere until they find it. If I don't see these traits I don't spend much time with them and I don't sell them to someone else.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by jerhovt on 02-16-2016 07:15 PM:

do you think If you take a dog and it does it alone does it hurt the dog to pack hunt it later on during training I understand they learn less hunting as a pack it stands to reason but if the young dog can and will do it alone do you think you gain or lose hunting them with other dogs?
Thanks
I find this post very useful

Posted by jkhutch on 02-16-2016 08:03 PM:

I don't start pups out treeing. I like them to track first. Those just wanna tree dogs don't do it for me. I have found out that a track dog will a lot times develop into a leader. How many times have you been in a hunt and that independent track dog that works a track out comes treed and makes the rest of the tree indiots leave the tree they come up short on? They may not progress as fast at first but usually by the time they are 16 to 24 months old they seem to keep progressing with age. It takes patience and time to train a dog like this but it usually turns out to be worth it. A lot of dogs if given the time are "track" dogs naturally. Some give up on dogs to early if they are not treeing by the age of 12 months. A "track" style dog is usually become more independent. Also it's a lot easier to train a dog that has some naturally good coon sense about them. If a dog doesn't have smarts and trainable sense they will not last long on my place. It is easier to train a "tree" style dog but I have found that these dogs rarely development the independence I like to see in my hounds. This is JMO. Everyone has there own ways, but this is the way my dad and I have done it for years and it's seemed to work with pretty good consistently and results.

__________________
Jared Hutcheson
Indiana
Redbones:
GRNTCH PKC Ch PR Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX DNA-V(Haze X Reba)-
2 Time UKC World Top 100
UKC World Top 20 (13th)
UKC Purina Redbone of the year
PKC Redbone CH
UKC Top Producers List
UKC Winter Classic High Scoring Redbone
Co owned with Richard Lambert

GrNtCh PKC Ch One Chance Fancy- (Boone X Toadie)
2018 Autumn Oaks Grand 16
2018 Grand National Redbone
2018 Redbones Days RQE 1st Place

Walkers-
NTCh PKC CH Jeb�s Finley River Peanut- Co owned with Bishop Stallcop
Claremont PKC Legacy hunt Final 4
PKC Breeders Showcase Final 4

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-16-2016 11:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jerhovt
do you think If you take a dog and it does it alone does it hurt the dog to pack hunt it later on during training I understand they learn less hunting as a pack it stands to reason but if the young dog can and will do it alone do you think you gain or lose hunting them with other dogs?
Thanks
I find this post very useful

I think it is fine to hunt a young dog with a solid broke old dog the first month or two when you are starting the young dog. but once I see the young dog showing me that it can work a track on its own and shows an interest in treeing some...I want to single it out right away. Then I will hunt that young dog alone, 2-3 times a week for 1-3 short drops (I hunt a lot of small patch woods) and if it does an outstanding job like running a hot track to the tree and staying till I get there...I praise and pet it for 5-10 mins and then we walk back to the truck and that dog goes home for at least two nights to think about it and let it sink in. once a young dog has treed several coons alone (5-10) then I think it is helpful to again start hunting it with an old solid broke dog about every 3rd time out and you can do this right up till its time to take the young dog to its first hunt....provided the young dog is being hunted about 2/3 of the time alone and is showing progress.
this stage is usually between 11-16 months for most dogs I have started. It is the stage after they have built up some confidence when they were hunting completely alone and proven they can tree easy coons by themselves without help. Then this stage where its 2/3 alone time and 1/3 time with a more experienced solid dog is the stage that brings out their competetiveness and allows them to break out as a leader as their ability improves.
If you have access to an older, slower dog to hunt them with...its much better than hunting them with a top level fast loner type dog that tries hard to beat that pup on everything. If a pup has any competetive spirit at all...you will see it really increase after that pup learns he can beat that old dog to the tree a few times.
Just make sure you keep hunting that young dog alone more than you hunt him with the old dog. Towards the end of this stage...about a month before the dogs first attempt at competition it is usually advantageous to substitute the old slow dog with a faster one or maybe even two or three so the dog can get used to running and treeing in a crowd...but always hunt it alone at least twice for every time you hunt it with other dogs so that it doesnt develope that pack mentality.
The stage after this one is the early competition stage and once I start hunting a young dog in competition I stop hunting it with everything else UNLESS its in a competition hunt for several months. I continue hunting the young dog 3-5 nights a week totally alone and i am usually hunting 3-4 hours per night. I mix it up between easy spots and rough spots and usually make half of the spots places where the dog has to cross several hundred yards of open field or pasture before it can reach the woods....because in a cast, you will be cutting that far from the woods at times and your dog has to go.
During this stage I also do one other thing...almost religeously with a young dog who is competing most week ends...
That thing is this
regardless of how well that young dog does in the competition hunt...I will stop somewhere after the hunt and make one or two drops with that dog alone and I will let him tree for 10-15 mins before I go to it and praise the dog.
The reason for this is that I want to erase anything I can from that dogs memory of what happened in that nite hunt on that cast and after perhaps going into several trees during the hunt without having to wait 5 mins because all dogs were treed...I want the last thing that young dog to remember about that night is treeing a coon by itself and it taking 10-15 or more mins to get there with the praise it deserved.
This may seem dumb to some people...but let me tell you, I been doing it for 25 years now and it works and I seldom have a nice young dog pick up bad habits from nite hunts.
On a final note, I would just like to say that I always describe myself as a competition hunter and not a pleasure hunter. I say this because everything I do through the week is to be as prepared as I can come the weekend. One of the biggest problems I see with guys who competition hunt but also say they are pleasure hunters is that they usually hunt with a partner or in a group...because its more enjoyable. That may be the case...but you cannot keep your young dog at its best and on top of its game by hunting it with other dogs all the time. A good rule of thumb that I use is at least 2 alone nights for every night the young dog is hunted with other dogs...so that usually equates to hunting it alone through the week if I am hunting it in competition on the weekends.
Is that enjoyable? it is for me, but then i am on a mission when I am working a top young prospect. I dont feel the need to show it off to my buddies through the week...they will find out what I have been up to soon enough on a weekend when they draw me

Best of luck to everyone this year...it should be a wild and exciting ride for the redbone breed!

Posted by mmarshall on 02-17-2016 12:42 AM:

Re: Good Thread

quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Mike
I have questions too.

Should we keep pups in a pen til they are 8 - 12 months old.....never mess with them.......then take them out 2 times to the woods and they should track and tree a coon? If they don't, should we just cull them on the spot?

Just curious. I guess I'm thinking if they are natural......we should not need to let them run loose on farms either when they are pups.

Let them be puppy's walks run loose I even had a 6 month on a walk one time guess what she treed a coon next night she treed 4 and I didn't need to shoot a one of them down to her natural

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-17-2016 01:03 AM:

No other pup starters want to help their fellow Redbone men/boys out?

Posted by mmarshall on 02-17-2016 01:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jkhutch
I don't start pups out treeing. I like them to track first. Those just wanna tree dogs don't do it for me. I have found out that a track dog will a lot times develop into a leader. How many times have you been in a hunt and that independent track dog that works a track out comes treed and makes the rest of the tree indiots leave the tree they come up short on? They may not progress as fast at first but usually by the time they are 16 to 24 months old they seem to keep progressing with age. It takes patience and time to train a dog like this but it usually turns out to be worth it. A lot of dogs if given the time are "track" dogs naturally. Some give up on dogs to early if they are not treeing by the age of 12 months. A "track" style dog is usually become more independent. Also it's a lot easier to train a dog that has some naturally good coon sense about them. If a dog doesn't have smarts and trainable sense they will not last long on my place. It is easier to train a "tree" style dog but I have found that these dogs rarely development the independence I like to see in my hounds. This is JMO. Everyone has there own ways, but this is the way my dad and I have done it for years and it's seemed to work with pretty good consistently and results.

Good post Jared I find my self liking that kind ....more go a little less show 😀

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 02-17-2016 01:43 AM:

Re: Re: Good Thread

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
Let them be puppy's walks run loose I even had a 6 month on a walk one time guess what she treed a coon next night she treed 4 and I didn't need to shoot a one of them down to her natural

and witch one was that one Mark, {smile]????

__________________
Herschel Burt

hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

Posted by hillbilly56 on 02-17-2016 02:11 AM:

i usally don't try and start a pup till it's between 8-12 months i show them 1 coon see how much interst it shows i also lead that pup keep it on the strap when the old dog strikes and trees i lead the pup to the tree if it shows no interst in the tree i ty it back and pay no atteion to it after a few trips pup should be foucs on what the other dog is doing i'll cut it loose if it wants to go but get to the tree and ty the pup so it don't get started milling around but this is me there is some good post on the subject

Posted by mmarshall on 02-17-2016 04:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
No other pup starters want to help their fellow Redbone men/boys out?

I'm not a pup starter /trainer I let the breeding do that I'm just a hunter
Imo if You jump start them There is know way to tell if it was good breeding or good training I've trained mutts to tree coon

Posted by elvis on 02-17-2016 06:44 AM:

in my opinion it realy dont matter how you start a pup.
its just a matter of what works for you. a natural is gonna be easy and make you look good either way.

Posted by DCorbin on 02-17-2016 11:03 AM:

coon college

Richard, I think as the Professor on this coonhuntin college you should assign some introductory readings... maybe a few chapters from 'Dog Talk' by Tom Solberg... would definitely supplement the content here, I think that type model has some useful practices.. I enjoyed success with a variation of that model, one distinct variation included mainly keeping the pups solo in their training (80% solo; 20% with a 2nd dog)... but i'm still a novice

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-17-2016 01:15 PM:

Mr Solberg was definately one of the "experts" on pup starting/ training and even wrote an excellant book about it. He actually had pretty good sucess with his methods. Everyone should read his book as well as watch the movie, "Where the Red Fern Grows". The boy in the movie had pretty good success with his training methods. Big Dan actually beat the big time walker dog in the World Championship. Here is an alternate theory from the "natural" one and I don't neccesarily think that it is a better one but just a different one. As I said before, Shane's method makes a lot of sense.
You breed for traits/talent, disposition, brains/intelligence and "trainability". (I made that up) You want a pup that is smart and eager to please his/her trainer/handler. But one that has a cold nose, good loud mouth, ability to work a bad track and a desire to go hunting. You don't breed for that natural track/tree instinct. Then you teach/train that pup to do what "you" want it to do. Now if you have done a good job of breeding, this won't be too hard. You use positive reinforcement when it does good and negative reinforcement when it does not. Of course you have to show it what you want it to run and tree. (a coon) You lay drags and progress to a live coon. Then you use a good pup trainer to show it how to run/work a bad track and put a tree on the end of it. This type of pup is not what some would call a "natural" but they naturally want to please their owner/trainer. You have to work to get these pups started but some think that this is fun not work. Later on, you can "train" this type of pup to be independant or not depending on your personal preference.

Now, whether these types of pups end up being better finished hounds is certainly open for debate. Some people will tell you that those naturally tree minded pups end up being slick treeing idiots. And some people have excellant success with them. "I think" that their are extremes to everything and you have to look for some middle ground that pleases you.

Posted by mmarshall on 02-17-2016 01:48 PM:

Thank you king if they don't make it here I'll give them a way to some one That's good at training or is looking for natural easy trainers that saves me the dirty work 👍😂

I do like Shane's method he is letting natural ability dictate what and when
not looking and trying to find what training method I can repeat that will teach it

Posted by Adam Wingler on 02-17-2016 01:49 PM:

Lots of good info here, thanks to all. But, Richard, you can take those "bear dogs" somewhere else, this is a coon hunting thread!

In respect to little Billy Coleman, we could all learn a lot. As many may know the fella that wrote the book was not nor had ever been a coon hunter as I've learned. However, Billy had the passion it took and what I like to see. I've mentioned that before, too much desire can screw something up occasionally, but too little desire and you'll have nothing.

Carry on coondog masters, I'm taking notes.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-17-2016 01:59 PM:

natural

A natural will make ALMOST any training method a success. and Breeding dogs that have strong natural ability is the best cull method there is. Just something to think about.

Just wondering how many people have had to do nothing more than take a dog hunting to see them track and tree. All dogs must be taught manners and obedience

Posted by DCorbin on 02-17-2016 01:59 PM:

I agree with you 100%, Shane's theory does make sense completely. It all stems back to nature vs nurture. You breed for dogs that are naturally susceptible to exhibiting those traits then you accentuate those traits you breed for and desire (independence, drive, track speed, etc) by training for them as well. I like Toms idea of 'play training', it may boost their desire to chase bc with moderation they think 'man this is fun!' And I also like how he warns repeatedly about dogs gettin too reliant on seeing the coon through too much cage work or sight running. Find things that work well for u and don't become completely set in your ways that you can't improve

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-17-2016 06:47 PM:

Ive never seen a copy of Tom's book...but it sounds like we think along similar lines. I learned hard lessons early on about too much cage training and repeatetive treeing by sight when pups are at a young age. Most people if they train many dogs in their lifetime will eventually arrive at the same findings...if they can get past the fact that just because lots of people have done it ...and still do it...doesnt make it right.
Its just one of those things where, to get a clear picture of how effective one method is over the other...you have to compare the success of trainers using both methods side by side and see who turns out the higher percentage of dogs that go on to be the best in measured circumstances...such as competition hunts for instance.
Now all this is assuming that both only work with well bred pups to begin with of coarse.
I contend that a high percentage of pups that are started by people or in facilities that repeatedly work young dogs together in groups during the daylight, in the same small area day in and day out for a month or more are creating habits that the owner will not find desirable later. A dog learns something in as few as 3 or 4 times and it can become habit in as little as 6-8 times. This can be good things...or bad things...or several of both at the same time. I dont see using a cage coon a few times with a pup to flip its switch...when its ready as a big no no....if you do it right. To me that means first making sure the pup is old enough mentally and physically to start...min 6-8 mo for me. Then work with the pup on a cage coon in a natural setting...to me the best place is right where I caught it and without me ever walking up on it before I let that pup discover it on its own. If the pup barks at it or acts interested...encourage it to bark and then tie it back and turn the coon lose and let it see the coon run off. A coon caught in its own home woods will know right where to go when released and there is absolutely no reason to kill that coon ...let it go and if the pup trees it...which is doubtful the first few times...praise the pup and take it home to let it sink in a few days.
One can repeat this scenerio 2-5 times over 2-4 weeks and with most pups...this is all they will ever need.
If the pup is mature enough but not all that agressive towards the coon...you can use an older dog to show them what to do and maybe help get it barking at it...but only a time or two on a cage coon. You could also instead of turning it loose right away brag it a ways and pull it up a tree and try to encourage the pup to tree before lowering it down and then turning it loose.
But what you dont want to do in any of your actions is make the dog do something where it is just imitating the actions and behavior of other dogs without really knowing why.
I have seen many, many dogs started by cage training facilities over the years that would tree their heads off with another dog...but would not tree their own coon and many would not tree unless they could see the coon up in the tree later on in life. Many would not go hunting unless you cut another dog with them because they had been trained to the point it became a habit that they are cut with other dogs everytime and they learned to follow the pack and tree with whatever dog treed first and then they got a reward...either the coon shot out or praised by the trainer. Think about it...this dog can do nothing but follow the leader to a tree and then bark and get a reward...to the untrained eye this is often mistaken for success. The dog is labeled as started...running and treeing! But is it? If it cannot do this on its own in different woods on wild coons...is it really started, or just trained to me too on familier ground?
This is where many people get fooled. When a dog is "started" this way...it will be very difficult (not always impossible) for this dog to break this habit and re learn how to actually hunt up, strike, trail, and tree a coon by itself and its a cold hard fact that many never do. Then the trainer usually says something like hey...it was treeing when it left here so it must be your fault. Or well, they dont all make it, or well, im not a trainer...i just get em started and its up to you to do the rest.
Just think about how impressionable our kids are at a young age....they are quick to learn...and rarely forget things. Pups are the same.
Thats why its very, very important that in teaching your young dog what you want it to do...that you dont unwittingly teach it other things that you dont want it to do.
The safest way is to allow what natural ability is bred into the dog to come out naturally...with as little influence as possible. If you try to force it out...especially before the pup is ready ...you risk altering things that you will wish you hadnt down the road.
Do your homework, question practices and advice on important issues like training. Look at the cold hard facts and proven results and dont get misled bya fancy sales pitch from someone who stands to gain something from you.
I ask for nothing from anyone in this breed and when I give advice it is to help someone who may not know or is seeking a better way so i have nothing to gain in my views on this. What i learned set me back and cost me a lot in my early years and if I can save someone some of that trouble ...im happy to because it all helps this breed improve. Good luck everyone

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