UKC Forums - Would You give up nose for accuracy????

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-- Would You give up nose for accuracy???? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928442962)

Posted by CHEWBACH on 02-09-2016 01:02 AM:

trade

thought this over! havnt asked wife yet!! mite trade wife off for a good dog with a good nose and accerate!!! maybe a small amount of boot!! than again maybe a lot of boot. Rocketman don't read this. lol

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Posted by shadinc on 02-09-2016 02:47 AM:

I don't lose any sleep over it. I'll probably never train another one. People that plan to hunt for twenty more years should be concerned.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 02-09-2016 04:16 AM:

Carson, You better not let your wife read your posts. She just may decide to cut you back at the dinner table. And we all know how much that would hurt us if our wives decided to do that. LOL!!

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Posted by Jason Baldwin on 02-09-2016 06:08 AM:

A dog that can wind a coon in the air and doesn't rely on smelling the coon scent on the actual bark of the tree will be the most accurate.

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Posted by shadinc on 02-09-2016 02:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
A dog that can wind a coon in the air and doesn't rely on smelling the coon scent on the actual bark of the tree will be the most accurate.

If you ever owned one like this, you know it's true.

Posted by shane_atchison on 02-09-2016 03:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
A dog that can wind a coon in the air and doesn't rely on smelling the coon scent on the actual bark of the tree will be the most accurate.

if it winds a coon in a grove of saplins and doesn't smell the bark of the tree in a 10 mph cross wind how does it pick which tree the coon is in? I've seen several that could wind a coon frequently and owned a few, but never seen or heard of an accurate one.

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Posted by Well Started on 02-09-2016 03:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
if it winds a coon in a grove of saplins and doesn't smell the bark of the tree in a 10 mph cross wind how does it pick which tree the coon is in? I've seen several that could wind a coon frequently and owned a few, but never seen or heard of an accurate one.

Then they weren't good at it IMO. Not saying that to run any dog down, it's not easy. Lots of very nice dogs that aren't good at winding game.

A few, very few, come along that make winding look easy and it's their go to ace in the hole. High, high, accuracy comes along with it.

Posted by Dan&Ann on 02-09-2016 05:36 PM:

Balance

I think a dog being balanced is what is needed. I want a dog to be able to finish a track that he starts. Get treed and stayed treed. None of us want a dog to smeer and gom half the night away and end up treeing slick or not treeing at all three hours later. And we don't want a dog that can only smell a track 5 minutes old. But we all live in different places with different terrain and different climates. So some dogs will shine in NC and may look not so good in Texas or Visa Versa. But in my opinion BALANCE is the key. And the dogs that can adapt the quickest to the conditions of that certain night or the terrain of that competition hunt will rise to the top more often than not.

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Posted by KEVIN MOSES on 02-09-2016 06:14 PM:

accurate dogs

I here people say in competition hunts sometime who's dogs are slick treeing "I can hunt this dog through the week and it hardly ever misses." There are two kinds of pressure with dogs. There is the pressure of staying treed while dogs are still trailing and there is pressure of staying on a track when dogs are treeing. Sometimes the latter is harder to do and dogs will "pull" to a slick treed dog faster than they will "pull" off the tree to a trailing dog. I think this "pressure" has a lot to do with accuracy. Just my opinion.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 02-10-2016 12:10 AM:

Mr. Baldwin & WellStarted

I certainly agree with the concept that winding dogs that get good at it seem to have an advantage in their locating ability.

I got lucky years ago, and owned a dog that had that ability to locate off the wind. When he was young and inexperienced he would sometimes embarras me to walk in and see him standing on his hind legs, spinning in the wind and treeing. But as he got another years experience under his belt, he developed the ability to smell coons in the air and go straight to the tree and sit down under that coon and tell the world, and other dogs didn't even seem to know a coon was within 300 yards of them.

When you watch a skilled winding dog work its magic, you will learn what an asset that can be.

Posted by GA DAWG on 02-10-2016 12:25 AM:

I had a female that could wind a coon with any dog. Saw her do it time and time again. Others dogs just wondering what's happening. I kept her till she died of old age. That being said. Yes when shed tree that way. She always had a coon BUT on a tough ol acorn feeding coon. She would get lazy sometimes and miss. Shoot her several coon. Shed go to missing bad. Specially on feeding coon. Put her in competition she would get in a hurry some and miss. All in all though she was a goodun I fed for 14 yrs almost.

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Posted by JiM on 02-10-2016 03:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by shane_atchison
if it winds a coon in a grove of saplins and doesn't smell the bark of the tree in a 10 mph cross wind how does it pick which tree the coon is in? I've seen several that could wind a coon frequently and owned a few, but never seen or heard of an accurate one.

In 50 years, I have seen two that did it with a very high level of sccuracy. One did regularly, one did it occasionally. I can't begin to explain how they did it.
I've seen many who tried and would often miss by a tree. That is why I break mine from even trying it. Close counts in horseshoes, hand genades and pleasure hunting. In comp hunting, it only sends you home broke again.

On nights when it was humid and the scent would fall towards the ground, our old Kate dog would tree some lay ups and have them. On windy nights, she would try it and miss by a tree time and again. Since everything with her was geared toward winning, we chose to eliminate the good AND the bad and that is why she is now afraid to tree unless she can smell a track on the wood. I can't remember the last time she took a minus for being slick.

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Posted by Well Started on 02-10-2016 03:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
In 50 years, I have seen two that did it with a very high level of sccuracy. One did regularly, one did it occasionally. I can't begin to explain how they did it.

I seen 1 coon dog good at it. 1 squirrel dog exceptional at it.

I can't explain either how they do it, but when you see it in action you never forget it.

When a dog can get hit with a blast of air and run straight to the tree on a string with no checking and be dead right, it's a special tool in the arsenal. The intended game might as well be waving an orange flag and hollering in a bullhorn .

Posted by Rocketman55 on 02-10-2016 04:23 AM:

Jim, that is a very interesting comment about breaking your female from gambling on the wind treeing instinct. Just wondering; If you had it to do over would you still have broken her to not trust her winding instinct??, or would you rather have given her one more year to see if she would have become more consistently accurate at coming up with the right tree??

I never did try to break mine from doing it and I, like you seen some that would miss by 1 tree, more often than they would be right. But boy when they get it right, what a grand arsenal of tools you have to work with, in coming from behind and pulling out a cast win when other dogs don't seem to know there is a coon in the woods. By breaking your dog the way you did, it sure sounds as if you helped her gain consistency. But at the same time you may have hindered her ability to make a comeback in a cast that she may have been just a little behind on.

Just curious as to how old she was when you decided to take that trait away from her, and again were there any regrets??

Thanks!

Posted by JiM on 02-10-2016 06:02 AM:

She is 6. I think she was around three when we went to work on her for those winded trees. I agree with what you are saying but my belief is that it will beat you 10 times more often than it will help you. The ones that can ace it are just too hard to come by. If I get one that can have the same percentage winding as trailing to the tree, I'll surely take it. But I don't hold my breath waiting for one.

Posted by moonshine man on 02-10-2016 06:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM

On nights when it was humid and the scent would fall towards the ground, our old Kate dog would tree some lay ups and have them. On windy nights, she would try it and miss by a tree time and again. Since everything with her was geared toward winning, we chose to eliminate the good AND the bad and that is why she is now afraid to tree unless she can smell a track on the wood. I can't remember the last time she took a minus for being slick. [/B]

How did you eliminate her from wind treeing ?
I have never seen a dog broke from wind treeing or treeing layups,you see more bad at it than good but if one is good at it you have something special,i think that anytime you break a dog from doing something that it wants to do it takes something from the dog in some way or another,you said, ( we chose to eliminate the good AND the bad and that is why she is now afraid to tree unless she can smell a track on the wood.) If she is afraid to tree unless track is on the wood how did she go that long without being slick because lots of times they will be a track on a tree and the coon is done gone especially in grapes and other vines where they can feed through the tree tops ?

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Posted by JiM on 02-10-2016 07:09 AM:

When she winds and misses, that's a slick tree. We treated her like we treat her on any other tree. She's always been a smart dog. It wasn't hard to fix.

Posted by GA DAWG on 02-10-2016 11:57 AM:

The Harry dog I had tried his best wind em. He would locate around and circle a small area. Usually miss once he took forever to get hooked. Had just one or 2 so I started breaking him from it to. Hed start circling and Id go run him out of there. Repetition is what it takes. I almost had him out of it. He would start that stuff and make me wanna pull my hair out lol. He was a blazing track dog but couldnt figure that winding out.

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Posted by shane_atchison on 02-10-2016 02:09 PM:

I hope I never have another do it. I saw a bluetick do 2 in a row one night, and thought he'd be hard to catch then he missed 2 in a row by just a few trees and was glad my dog wouldn't gamble like that.

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Posted by moonshine man on 02-10-2016 05:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
When she winds and misses, that's a slick tree. We treated her like we treat her on any other tree. She's always been a smart dog. It wasn't hard to fix.

So you are telling me you broke her from wind treeing layups by treating her the same as any other tree she made,getting a dog to stop using its noise is one of the hardest things to do,you will have to fly that kite on a windier day.

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Posted by Well Started on 02-10-2016 07:57 PM:

I don't know about breaking or not breaking, but I can promise you here's one guy that wouldn't be attempting it if I'm ever fortunate enough to run across another 1.

Breaking a dog from treeing game that other dogs don't even know are in the woods, is akin to making Secretariat lame in 1 leg to offset the advantage of having an enlarged heart.

Our Grandfathers woulda boxed us in the ears till we had tears running then sent us off to school with no shoes just to add a little shame to the punishment.

I understand points is points in a comp hunt but if ever there's a case to be made against comp hunts hurting breeding for good traits, this is it.

I'm not degrading anybody, I understand only points win comp hunts, but there's something really wrong with this picture.

Posted by Ray&Luie on 02-10-2016 08:14 PM:

Accuracy

Doesn't have anything to do with nose in my opinion, stupidity will make a hound tree what doesn't exist as well as a Basset hound barking @ the wind , he smells something but he don't know what or where it is so he just barks, iv seen a few gooderns in my day and they all had smarts more than they did noses , waded through a backwater swamp one time with a medium nosed Walker Female on the leash and she treed a hand full of Coons that not another dog in the group even whimpered at ok so was that nose or was that hey there is a coon up this tree boys ? cant yawl smellem he's right here ..........Coon since they call it

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Posted by shane_atchison on 02-10-2016 08:48 PM:

I should rephrase, if I had one winding coon and checking the tree properly I would be pleased. I was talking about dogs that wind coon and sit down under a tree without checking and locating.

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Posted by JiM on 02-10-2016 09:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Well Started
I don't know about breaking or not breaking, but I can promise you here's one guy that wouldn't be attempting it if I'm ever fortunate enough to run across another 1.

Breaking a dog from treeing game that other dogs don't even know are in the woods, is akin to making Secretariat lame in 1 leg to offset the advantage of having an enlarged heart.

Our Grandfathers woulda boxed us in the ears till we had tears running then sent us off to school with no shoes just to add a little shame to the punishment.

I understand points is points in a comp hunt but if ever there's a case to be made against comp hunts hurting breeding for good traits, this is it.

I'm not degrading anybody, I understand only points win comp hunts, but there's something really wrong with this picture.

You are totally discounting the fact that slick is stick. I dont think anyone is gonna correct a dog for treeing a coon but when they miss 3 in a row, im not caring a bit how close they were, I'm making a correction. And when a dog shows an obvious preference for something they cant do, im fixing that. The great thing about pleasure hunting is you can be as tolerant of faults as you want, excuses have no cost.

Posted by Well Started on 02-10-2016 11:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
The great thing about pleasure hunting is you can be as tolerant of faults as you want, excuses have no cost.

Another way to look at it is the great thing about pleasure hunting is I can say I have a dog that likes to wind but sometimes looks good, sometimes misses, and leave it at that. No reason to make excuses.

To me it's something to try and improve on, not stifle. But I understand everybody likes different things.

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