UKC Forums - New rule?????

Pages (6): « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »
Show all 126 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- New rule????? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928442868)

Posted by CHEWBACH on 02-09-2016 01:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I must not be understanding what you are saying here...the 8 minutes does not start when you strike your dog. The 8 minutes starts when the last bark was heard. If the track is getting bad and dogs are slowing way down the judge should start noting the time when they last barked. Dogs could have been running the track for over an hour but it gets bad and they are shutting up. The last dog barked 7 minutes and 59 seconds ago and you hear a bark, that starts it all over again.
The way this post reads dogs have 8 minutes to what??? tree a coon??? From the time the first one is struck??? No, one of them has to bark once within 8 minutes or the track is minused.
One other thing to remember, time out or interference {last time I checked this word doesn't appear in the rules}...neither one excuses the fact that if dogs were trailing when time out called the points have to be minused.

read it I said when you cant hear dog/dogs that's when it starts.

__________________
C.JONES

Posted by GA DAWG on 02-09-2016 01:25 AM:

Just wait till the 8s almost up and tree your dog. Gives you an extra 5 with most judges today.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by Chall123 on 02-09-2016 03:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Just wait till the 8s almost up and tree your dog. Gives you an extra 5 with most judges today.

just because you tree your dog will not stop the 8 if judge can't hear it!!!! Judge must be able to hear the dog to take a tree call

Posted by wbond on 02-09-2016 04:04 PM:

My ? really is this dogs have a good track high on the mountain go over there is no way you can get to top in 8 minutes so do you start the 8 were your at when they go out or wait till you get to the top so ya can hear them its just one of many things that happens hear in the mountains actually quite often or when a dog gets treed you got a say a thirty minute walk to get to the dog but once you leave that spot you want be able to hear that dog for about 15 minutes do you wait the five out there to give the other handlers a chance to tree before the 5 is up and do you apply the 2 as soon as you can't here the dog knowing the 2 is going to catch it before you can get to were you can hear it ?

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. ~~ Thomas Jefferson

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"

Thomas Jefferson

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
Thomas Jefferson

Posted by msinc on 02-09-2016 04:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wbond
My ? really is this dogs have a good track high on the mountain go over there is no way you can get to top in 8 minutes so do you start the 8 were your at when they go out or wait till you get to the top so ya can hear them its just one of many things that happens hear in the mountains actually quite often or when a dog gets treed you got a say a thirty minute walk to get to the dog but once you leave that spot you want be able to hear that dog for about 15 minutes do you wait the five out there to give the other handlers a chance to tree before the 5 is up and do you apply the 2 as soon as you can't here the dog knowing the 2 is going to catch it before you can get to were you can hear it ?

I understand exactly what you are saying, I own a bunch of land over in Natural Bridge. Unfortunately, you have to start the 8 after you hear the last bark and don't or in this case are unable to hear the dogs anymore. If it takes you 30 minutes to get to where you can hear them again then according to the rules the dogs should have been minused on that track 22 minutes ago. There is no provision in the rules that I am aware of to remedy this.
All that said, I am not saying cheat, but my hearing is not that good. I fired one too many high powered rifles in my day, so who am I to dispute someone that says he still hears them when I don't. The argument could be made that maybe I shouldn't be judging the cast. My hearing isn't that bad for the areas I hunt...if it was I would quit.
This of course has to be within reason, and how they left out...if a cast member is telling me he still hears dogs for 45 minutes and we walk from Natural Bridge to Fincastle....that aint gonna get it. If, on the other hand a handler says "I can barely hear them, they are this way" and you walk along {that way} and hear the dogs then it seems reasonable enough. I wouldn't minus them. The guy that's not in the lead surely would want to.

Edit: As far as the tree scenario, you start the 5 when a handler or handlers call their dog treed. If you are in a spot where you can hear them treed and you know the direction but know that you will lose hearing them on the way...it would take a real jackass judge to try and pull a 2 minute stunt. This is one of those things that can be better addressed at the beginning of the hunt. If you are the guide or the judge let the other handlers know that this may happen and how you intend to handle it. They will usually all agree on something that could eventually end up helping them...it's when they are behind in points that the try to weasel you. The rules do say you are to start walking towards the tree if it will take longer than 5 minutes. In both cases, track or tree...you and I both know that the way it is really going to go down is the "Garmin" way.....

Posted by Fire Archer on 02-09-2016 05:42 PM:

It is amusing how most guys say UKC rules are so black and white. However there is a constant argument/misunderstanding on here over the rules. Maybe make it where you should have to be certified/tested by UKC before you can be a judge and present your certification to MOH prior to hunt. It would be more work on UKC's part but I believe it would make the hunts more enjoyable and a ton less arguments. Something has to be done. Way to many ways to cheat the system and tons of people willing to do it.

Posted by wbond on 02-09-2016 05:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I understand exactly what you are saying, I own a bunch of land over in Natural Bridge. Unfortunately, you have to start the 8 after you hear the last bark and don't or in this case are unable to hear the dogs anymore. If it takes you 30 minutes to get to where you can hear them again then according to the rules the dogs should have been minused on that track 22 minutes ago. There is no provision in the rules that I am aware of to remedy this.
All that said, I am not saying cheat, but my hearing is not that good. I fired one too many high powered rifles in my day, so who am I to dispute someone that says he still hears them when I don't. The argument could be made that maybe I shouldn't be judging the cast. My hearing isn't that bad for the areas I hunt...if it was I would quit.
This of course has to be within reason, and how they left out...if a cast member is telling me he still hears dogs for 45 minutes and we walk from Natural Bridge to Fincastle....that aint gonna get it. If, on the other hand a handler says "I can barely hear them, they are this way" and you walk along {that way} and hear the dogs then it seems reasonable enough. I wouldn't minus them. The guy that's not in the lead surely would want to.

Edit: As far as the tree scenario, you start the 5 when a handler or handlers call their dog treed. If you are in a spot where you can hear them treed and you know the direction but know that you will lose hearing them on the way...it would take a real jackass judge to try and pull a 2 minute stunt. This is one of those things that can be better addressed at the beginning of the hunt. If you are the guide or the judge let the other handlers know that this may happen and how you intend to handle it. They will usually all agree on something that could eventually end up helping them...it's when they are behind in points that the try to weasel you. The rules do say you are to start walking towards the tree if it will take longer than 5 minutes. In both cases, track or tree...you and I both know that the way it is really going to go down is the "Garmin" way.....

Yea but the rule says the same as track if you apply the 8 when they top out you have to apply the 2 on the tree one is the same as the other we both know hunting in the mountains is totally different from hunting in flat country

Posted by HOBO on 02-09-2016 06:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wbond
My ? really is this dogs have a good track high on the mountain go over there is no way you can get to top in 8 minutes so do you start the 8 were your at when they go out or wait till you get to the top so ya can hear them its just one of many things that happens hear in the mountains actually quite often or when a dog gets treed you got a say a thirty minute walk to get to the dog but once you leave that spot you want be able to hear that dog for about 15 minutes do you wait the five out there to give the other handlers a chance to tree before the 5 is up and do you apply the 2 as soon as you can't here the dog knowing the 2 is going to catch it before you can get to were you can hear it ?

99.9% of the time most guys that hunt those mtns. are gonna wait till they get to the top before they ever think about putting the 8 on them.

__________________
Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss

Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

Posted by ThatBlueDog on 02-10-2016 01:08 PM:

Has anyone ever had the issue where you might have trouble making the deadline so before the hunt starts you make a certain deadline where you will stop hunting and head back to the club?

For example: I was at a hunt and the judge gathered us around and said where pretty far from the club and it will be close to make it back before the deadline. Dealing was 2 am so he said no matter how much time is left at 1:30 the hunt will be over. He said I do it this way so no one is at an advantage when it come down to the end of the hunt and wanting to walk it off. Didn't seem right to me but they all agreed.

__________________
The guy who has to brag about his dog has everything to prove. If it ain't blue it ain't true.

Josh Brewster 330-360-8306

CH NITECH 'PR' That Blue Dog Copper'
Missasissy’s Bad Hatchet

Posted by sleepy head on 02-10-2016 01:28 PM:

Yes, some of these clubs are hurting for guides so they ask guys to guide a hour out, when I'm asked in that situation, I say i will but got to change the deadline, if your going to put a hunt on have enough curiosity to give the boys and girls plenty of time to get their time in

Posted by msinc on 02-10-2016 01:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ThatBlueDog
Has anyone ever had the issue where you might have trouble making the deadline so before the hunt starts you make a certain deadline where you will stop hunting and head back to the club?

For example: I was at a hunt and the judge gathered us around and said where pretty far from the club and it will be close to make it back before the deadline. Dealing was 2 am so he said no matter how much time is left at 1:30 the hunt will be over. He said I do it this way so no one is at an advantage when it come down to the end of the hunt and wanting to walk it off. Didn't seem right to me but they all agreed.

It was absolutely not right!!! This is along the lines of my original post...the fact of the matter is that under UKC rules, and to be fair to all casts, all dogs MUST hunt the full two hours. The idea that you can end a hunt at only an hour and forty minutes to make it back to the club is no different than allowing dogs to be lead around on a leash for the last twenty minutes...either way, the problem is that the dogs in the casts that operate this way were excluded from hunt time in which they could have run up a bunch of minus points.
Everyone agreeing to this in the casts or the entire hunt doesn't make it correct or acceptable either...Jim said it best, "if we all agree, lets give plus points for possums!!!"
Why not just agree to forgo the entire hunt and go to a bar and drink for the two hours, then flip a coin for the cast winner??? Come on guys, it's a hunt test for dogs...so test them!!!
One of the reasons clubs and judges and probably some master of hounds get away with this is because it goes unreported. There is a simple procedure to follow, but rather than do it and get it stopped most guys don't want to make waves.

Posted by novicane65 on 02-10-2016 02:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
It was absolutely not right!!! This is along the lines of my original post...the fact of the matter is that under UKC rules, and to be fair to all casts, all dogs MUST hunt the full two hours. The idea that you can end a hunt at only an hour and forty minutes to make it back to the club is no different than allowing dogs to be lead around on a leash for the last twenty minutes...either way, the problem is that the dogs in the casts that operate this way were excluded from hunt time in which they could have run up a bunch of minus points.
Everyone agreeing to this in the casts or the entire hunt doesn't make it correct or acceptable either...Jim said it best, "if we all agree, lets give plus points for possums!!!"
Why not just agree to forgo the entire hunt and go to a bar and drink for the two hours, then flip a coin for the cast winner??? Come on guys, it's a hunt test for dogs...so test them!!!
One of the reasons clubs and judges and probably some master of hounds get away with this is because it goes unreported. There is a simple procedure to follow, but rather than do it and get it stopped most guys don't want to make waves.

XXXXX22222222

You have to HUNT the advertised hunt TIME. Whether its a 2 hour hunt or more. Doesn't matter. It's not up to the guide or judge to dictate the hunt time. It's kind of like going to a hunt expecting hunt a 90 minute hunt but after you pay. and draw out your judge says "We're hunting a 2 hour hunt now boys". But the other casts are only hunting the advertised hunt time. IT's CHEATING. Plain and simple.

Think of it a different way, if you got back to the club and found out that you lost the hunt by 25 points would you be mad? I know I would be. All because they/you agreed to shorten the hunt time.

Posted by wbond on 02-10-2016 03:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
99.9% of the time most guys that hunt those mtns. are gonna wait till they get to the top before they ever think about putting the 8 on them.

Dennis are you saying all of us hillbillys are cheats lol because I have been hunting competition hunts of all kinds of different kennel club since back in the sixties and that's the way it's always been done as far as the hunting time we have always hunted it except maybe a minute are two I have seen plenty of people with draw to keep from hunting that last ten minutes in these mountains for one thing your probably not going to tree anything and you could be in for one heck of a walk and it's very common here to go back to the club see how or if you placed than have to head back to were you turned loose the last time and go get your dog

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-10-2016 03:20 PM:

What were the scores when this happened?

Sometimes people just need to get out of the way and don't.

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

Posted by msinc on 02-10-2016 04:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
What were the scores when this happened?

Sometimes people just need to get out of the way and don't.

Since this post was originally about not hunting the full time, I guess you are referring to that. The three times I witnessed handlers trying this there was one dog that had what his handler felt was enough of a lead that he could not be beat in 20 minutes. It turned out that in two of the hunts the handlers were right. We hunted the full time and nothing got turned around.
Not sure what you mean by some people getting out of the way??? Voluntarily withdrawing or scratching the other dogs not in the lead doesn't mean the dog currently winning the cast gets to just stop hunting, he still has to hunt out the full two hours of the hunt.
I think what most handlers don't think about is the other casts in the hunt. If we are in a cast together and you have more plus points than me I may not be able to recover and if I call it quits and we end the hunt before you put in two hours, no, you certainly didn't cheat me. I was beat to begin with, but suppose we did go the full time and you got scratched for treeing a possum at the very end. None of us would bother if every time we went to a hunt we had to hunt the full time but a select cast only had to put in enough time to rack up some plus and stop any chance of getting any minus points.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-10-2016 05:30 PM:

I will not withdraw if I have the slightest chance to win. I will also not continue to hunt if I have ZERO chance of winning.

We can make up scenarios all we want, but we know when there is not chance. When that situation arises I see no point in continuing. I am not sure why others do either.

The last UKC hunt I was in was an open cast. I had 575 +, no circle, no minus, the only other dog left in the cast has 25-. The others had withdrawn. There was 9 minutes left, and he recut because he didnt understand that he had literally no shot. Therefore I had to walk a mile to my dog after the hunt because that is how far he had to go to get away from a facebarking covering puke of a dog that had followed him all night.

Like I said, some people just need to know when they are beat and get out of the way. As far as walking the cast out, it doesnt bother me, despite it being against the rules. If I had turned loose by myself I doubt I would have had to go far because we were in thick coons and he would have took the first track he came too.

In other KC's it is the same. I was at a large hunt last fall and at the end of the cast I was down 50 with 12 minutes to go. The other two dogs in the cast needed 4 coons solo in 12 minutes to catch the leader. They cut them loose and sucked up first and second strike when they should have just kept them on the lead.

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

Posted by shadinc on 02-10-2016 07:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
I will not withdraw if I have the slightest chance to win. I will also not continue to hunt if I have ZERO chance of winning.

We can make up scenarios all we want, but we know when there is not chance. When that situation arises I see no point in continuing. I am not sure why others do either.

The last UKC hunt I was in was an open cast. I had 575 +, no circle, no minus, the only other dog left in the cast has 25-. The others had withdrawn. There was 9 minutes left, and he recut because he didnt understand that he had literally no shot. Therefore I had to walk a mile to my dog after the hunt because that is how far he had to go to get away from a facebarking covering puke of a dog that had followed him all night.

Like I said, some people just need to know when they are beat and get out of the way. As far as walking the cast out, it doesnt bother me, despite it being against the rules. If I had turned loose by myself I doubt I would have had to go far because we were in thick coons and he would have took the first track he came too.

In other KC's it is the same. I was at a large hunt last fall and at the end of the cast I was down 50 with 12 minutes to go. The other two dogs in the cast needed 4 coons solo in 12 minutes to catch the leader. They cut them loose and sucked up first and second strike when they should have just kept them on the lead.

I think you have skewed view of what COMPITITION hunting is. Do you think it's right for the other casts to be competing against three other dogs while you have nothing to compete with? If they get scratched that's one thing, but as long as they're eligible, they should compete.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-10-2016 09:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I think you have skewed view of what COMPITITION hunting is. Do you think it's right for the other casts to be competing against three other dogs while you have nothing to compete with? If they get scratched that's one thing, but as long as they're eligible, they should compete.

If a dog beats up on a cast to the point that they have ZERO chance with 10 minutes to go you dont think its okay to hunt by yourself because its not fair to the other casts?

All they have to do is the same thing.

That is way more fair than drawing a guide that puts you in zero coons, while another cast is loaded up with coons.

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

Posted by shadinc on 02-10-2016 11:02 PM:

No, I don't think it's fair to hunt by yourself if the other dogs are eligible. In your previous post you stated that 2 other dogs sucked up 1st and 2nd strike. That's 50 points you didn't get because you were still competing. Without those 2 dogs you have a 50 point advantage over the other casts.

Posted by msinc on 02-10-2016 11:17 PM:

You bring up a few interesting points Mr. Michaels. If a handlers dog is beat he's beat, but it is his choice alone to stay in the hunt or get out. Most of the time a dog that gets clobbered doesn't too much affect the way a good dog operates anyway.
Maybe I did a bad job of explaining what "walking out the hunt" means {at least as far as this thread is concerned}. I think it got confusing when I described the last hunt I was on. In that situation there was one dog that was clearly going to win. Two other dogs did not opt to withdrawal. These three wanted to leash the dogs and go to the truck {end the hunt} with 20 minutes left to go until the two hours was up. Walking out the hunt is simply stopping before the two hours is up, whether one dog is winning or not. Really has nothing to do with scores, more the handlers don't want a chance at minus or chasing dogs any further.
In your posts you said you had "no problem with walking out the hunt." We must be talking about two different things, because my version of it is cheating, slap simple. You seem like a straight up guy and don't strike me as the type of handler that would simply cheat in a nite hunt.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-10-2016 11:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc In your posts you said you had "no problem with walking out the hunt." We must be talking about two different things, because my version of it is cheating, slap simple. You seem like a straight up guy and don't strike me as the type of handler that would simply cheat in a nite hunt. [/B]

Like I said, if every one agrees to walk out the last few minutes of a decided cast, I honestly don't care.

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

Posted by GA DAWG on 02-11-2016 12:06 AM:

It did use to say or still does if you wasn't moving over ??? You couldnt call time out. You just moved. How far was it 15 min? Does it still say that?

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by msinc on 02-11-2016 01:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Like I said, if every one agrees to walk out the last few minutes of a decided cast, I honestly don't care.

So you will cheat, you are not as straight as I thought. I am disappointed to hear that. A lot can happen in the last few minutes to scratch a dog. It is not decided until the dog has hunted the full 2 hours. But, if that is how you want to title your dogs...well you could probably care less about that too. At least no one can argue with your honest.y

Posted by HOBO on 02-11-2016 02:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by wbond
Dennis are you saying all of us hillbillys are cheats lol because I have been hunting competition hunts of all kinds of different kennel club since back in the sixties and that's the way it's always been done as far as the hunting time we have always hunted it except maybe a minute are two I have seen plenty of people with draw to keep from hunting that last ten minutes in these mountains for one thing your probably not going to tree anything and you could be in for one heck of a walk and it's very common here to go back to the club see how or if you placed than have to head back to were you turned loose the last time and go get your dog

I knew I should have said 95%... LOL

I know when I hunted in the hunts around home several times the judge would wait till they got to the top before they would put the 8 on them.

Posted by Josh Michaelis on 02-11-2016 02:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
So you will cheat, you are not as straight as I thought. I am disappointed to hear that. A lot can happen in the last few minutes to scratch a dog. It is not decided until the dog has hunted the full 2 hours. But, if that is how you want to title your dogs...well you could probably care less about that too. At least no one can argue with your honest.y

Well at least I'm an honest cheat I guess.

If there is not enough time for the stationary to get me, and the rest of the cast has withdrawn, how on earth could anything happen in the last few minutes of a cast to scratch me.

__________________
YouTube.com/@canestreammedia
www.joydogfood.com
Fueled by Joy Podcast

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:57 AM.

Pages (6): « 1 [2] 3 4 » ... Last »
Show all 126 posts from this thread on one page