UKC Forums - Slick treeing?

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Posted by N Williams on 02-07-2016 05:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mr taylor
Originally posted by shadinc
Some of it is in training now, because of the tree happy dogs we're breeding. I'm not upset with anyone for doing this. I've followed both kinds. No tree and all tree. Give me the tree dog. At least I can catch him and go home. I'm partly responsible for this. I always bred to the best tree dog available. I was vice president of my eight grade class in 1956.
you said it was both training and breeding yesterday and we agreed on another thread ..

This is another problem about catching them off a tree. Every accurate dog I've had would punish you if coons were not moving. I contribute most hound problems to laziness. That phrase just goes to show how lazy our hunters are. It has contributed to problems in our hounds. I had rather walk 2 miles to one tree see a coon as I had to shine 4 trees close and look at one.

Posted by shadinc on 02-07-2016 05:32 PM:

If the rules ever change to handle a slick tree like a possum tree, you'll see a great reduction in slick treeing dogs.

Posted by on 02-07-2016 06:08 PM:

If stopping dogs from slick treeing was just a matter of training, then I have a question. Why wouldn't at least 5 guys know how to break a dog from doing it and have a line at their front door about a mile long. Not to mention a big bank account.

Shad hit the nail on the head. Our dogs are a product of the rules in the game we play. If we designed rules that only silent dogs would win what do you think would happen. The silent dogs would win then get bred and over time we would have silent dogs.

Posted by CHEWBACH on 02-07-2016 06:32 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
If stopping dogs from slick treeing was just a matter of training, then I have a question. Why wouldn't at least 5 guys know how to break a dog from doing it and have a line at their front door about a mile long. Not to mention a big bank account.

Shad hit the nail on the head. Our dogs are a product of the rules in the game we play. If we designed rules that only silent dogs would win what do you think would happen. The silent dogs would win then get bred and over time we would have silent dogs.

Bruce the product you get depends on how you hunt it! don't take a pup out with a older slick treeing idioit and think the out come will be good! or take a pup and use cage coon/drags and think the out come will be good. the prob is to many lazy hunters don't want to take the hard way and hunt one from a puppy up to being a coondog ALONE! WEY to much time involved! just easier to take with other dogs and start. cage/drags or what ever else these professionals come up with. most don't want a coon dog just one to compete getting that strike or first tree. 50/50 hunting and how they are breed. depends on style ya like!! if I have a true coondog not a want be coondog.I will have a completion dog.

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Posted by CHEWBACH on 02-07-2016 06:39 PM:

slick

once you have this prob is hard to break!! very hard! most these dogs don't and want run a cold track and finish it! the desire is breed out most a few still left I hope! cause a lot are being breed! I had to edit! People take and breed just for pups$$$$ and not for Balance in dogs! take bell prob couldn't find her food pan if not tied up by it! breed and just to sell pups!jmo

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C.JONES

Posted by elvis on 02-07-2016 07:10 PM:

Re: Slick treeing?

quote:
Originally posted by OldRook
Where did it start in the Walker breed and why?

Thoughts??

For me it was hickory nut harry.
A lot of it was my own fault im sure. I didnt realize that with his pups I no longer had to beg them to tree, but had to figure out how to keep them from treeing too much.

I still see a lot of guys go in to that pup and rib slap him and blow the reeds out of a squaller and get the pup so intoxicated with treeing that its all it wants to do.
You cant do that with most lines today or you will forever have a sore neck and a dead light from shining all those trees.

Posted by OldRook on 02-07-2016 07:30 PM:

Interesting stuff guys.

Elvis- I had a hound direct off of old Harry and a son and a grandson off a dog called Gibsons Rowdy off of old Harry. Loved them and rarely looked up a blank.. Saw some others that did occasionally. But not to the level I have seen in the couple of hunts I've attended in the last year. Whole other level

Posted by elvis on 02-07-2016 07:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
Old Rowdy was the first grand nite champion off Harry.
Jim Gibson from Elkhart Indiana owned him.

Posted by OldRook on 02-07-2016 08:01 PM:

Yeah he threw a lot of good hounds here. And he was bred to some great bitches in Goshen IN. That was my exposure to him. Would give a left nut for the make dog I had off of him

Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 02-08-2016 11:51 AM:

Extreme Tree dog bred to Extreme Tree dog =?
Now do this for 20 yrs. LOL

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by WVBLUEBOY on 02-08-2016 04:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
I believe that "putting up with it" is about half terrain related and the other half guys that just slap don't have a clue how to deal with it. You can best believe there are fewer slick treeing dogs in places like West Virginia or Kentucky...hike those mountains night after night to go to a slick tree??? I don't think so, they may have the same number of dogs that try it but I'd bet those type dogs don't stay around there.
Most guys are so happy to have a dog tree they will not correct the dog for fear they will "ruin it"...what good is it slick treeing???
Many don't believe one of the main reasons dogs slick tree...they are not running a coon to start with, so how are you going to see one??
Last night we had a 7 year old dog take off by itself on a track, run 500 or so yards to tree slick. The other three dogs were not interested. I don't know what this dog ran, but I know it wasn't a coon, it didn't climb and it wasn't no ghost either!!! This dog was not a walker and was a grand nite champion.

+1
If I have to top out 4 or 5 mountains to only look at tree bark & limbs that I could have seen at the bottom of those mountains, on that 6th trip something with hair on it at the top of that mountain is getting some hot lead in its rump.

Posted by msinc on 02-08-2016 05:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by WVBLUEBOY
+1
If I have to top out 4 or 5 mountains to only look at tree bark & limbs that I could have seen at the bottom of those mountains, on that 6th trip something with hair on it at the top of that mountain is getting some hot lead in its rump.

I love the great state of West Virginia, Kentucky too. You folks have a beautiful state and some of the nicest friendliest people I ever met. I aint so sure I could stand topping out 4-5 mountains to look at a coon!!!! I wonder sometimes how you guys do it!!! I know aint nobody running them ridges just for the fun of a slick treeing dog!!!! If the climb didn't kill me I would surely seize up from beating the dog senseless if I did make it to the top!!!!
It's funny how guys that have been at this long enough {myself being one} can remember when we used to go thru 10 or more puppies and dogs just to find one that would tree and stay. Back then treeing was a sacred act done by only the most valuable dogs. It was hard enough to find that you didn't dare disturb a dog that was treed, even if it was slick....
I cant blame slick treeing dogs on any of the current or newer breeders, we did as much if not more to cause it.
It's also funny what will please people given what's available at the time...back then we said to the breeders "just give me something that will tree!!!" Today, that's no longer an issue, now these guys want a dog that will only tree one on the outside. As if a dog can make that determination. Go figure.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-08-2016 05:42 PM:

I have a dog that I am hunting now that went through a period of slick treeing. This same dog started out very accurate. I paid close attention to what was going on. Pulling her off a tree and sending her on would not have corrected her problem.

The woods I was hunting was thick with flying squirrels. In fact, the squirrels would run down the tree above the dogs head and whistle at them. I fixed her problem by breaking her off squirrels.

I guess it would have been easier to give up on her and try another dog, but that isn't who i am.

__________________
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Aim small miss small

Posted by OldRook on 02-09-2016 03:29 AM:

I have hunted in Mid and North Mi a number of times. I have seen flying squirrels concentrated in areas at times that I would hate to hazard a guess at the numbers. Can understand what you just remarked on. A dog not used to it could easily have problems.

Posted by Joe Mueller on 02-09-2016 04:09 AM:

Imo it is whether your dog has enough nose to locate the body of the coon. Silent or not those type tree coons and are able to drift out locate without standing on there head. But all go through phases of empty treeing from what I've seen. Most generally leaning trees. Some don't like to bark in and then just pick a tree. I used to think the dog really was convinced it had a coon but if they were accurate once before they know there slick most generally. The handler has to do his part as well. Including hunting spots. I often thought of it like this to tell if a dog has a nose or not. If it has to put its nose in the dirt to move a track I doubt it has a very good nose. I've hunted this type before they tree coons to but not nearly as fast and not as many.

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Posted by CONRAD FRYAR on 02-09-2016 12:10 PM:

About 12 yrs or so ago I took Fryar's Liza Jane to to breed to a certain stud who comes from a line known for there tree power, i got caught up in the hype and thought i was getting left behind.LOL It was like nothing i had ever seen, the pups were different then i had ever raised, at 2 to 3 months the whole litter would tree on a coon hide and hard.(still have video)
As they matured there were some very good dogs came out of that litter, but i could see they were different, had to be treed to be happy, nothing moving gonna get treed on a den or whatever. Thick coons you were beat! But in these Mtns. not for me. I started thinking this bloodline is in everything out there and people are breeding to other tree dogs the same way, everytime you make a cross and something is added something slips to the back, "TREE plus Tree moved Track to the back".
I went the opposite direction at that point and we are happy with what we have.
16 Years with the same line of dogs, Coma x Lipper crosses.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Posted by novicane65 on 02-09-2016 02:45 PM:

The other issue I see at the limited number of hunts I've been to is Automatic Strike Dogs!!!!!! The honest strike dog is always sitting in the last spot for strike points. And even if your dog splits off gets to itself. You still have to tree an extra coon to win. JMO though. Not worth much.

Posted by DFred on 02-09-2016 03:04 PM:

I wouldn't call a dog that always gets last strike a honest strike dog. I'd call it a poor strike dog. There are dogs that use their mouth a lot that are honest and do not just babble. I call them excellent strike dogs. These dogs don't always get first strike but rarely get last.

Posted by Jason Baldwin on 03-04-2016 06:21 AM:

Re: Re: Slick treeing?

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
For me it was hickory nut harry.
A lot of it was my own fault im sure. I didnt realize that with his pups I no longer had to beg them to tree, but had to figure out how to keep them from treeing too much.

I still see a lot of guys go in to that pup and rib slap him and blow the reeds out of a squaller and get the pup so intoxicated with treeing that its all it wants to do.
You cant do that with most lines today or you will forever have a sore neck and a dead light from shining all those trees.

This is what I learned and am still learning. You are exactly right. Dogs have to be handled differently.

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Posted by msinc on 03-04-2016 12:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
I have a dog that I am hunting now that went through a period of slick treeing. This same dog started out very accurate. I paid close attention to what was going on. Pulling her off a tree and sending her on would not have corrected her problem.

The woods I was hunting was thick with flying squirrels. In fact, the squirrels would run down the tree above the dogs head and whistle at them. I fixed her problem by breaking her off squirrels.

I guess it would have been easier to give up on her and try another dog, but that isn't who i am.

quote:
Originally posted by OldRook
I have hunted in Mid and North Mi a number of times. I have seen flying squirrels concentrated in areas at times that I would hate to hazard a guess at the numbers. Can understand what you just remarked on. A dog not used to it could easily have problems.

We have them here and I have seen it where they do exactly this. They are a strange little animal and the way they jump around and fly and whistle at dogs it's a wonder how many dogs they have messed up at one time or another. I have also seen these things spend a lot of time on the ground. I think they are curious when a dog runs them, they have to run down the trunk of a tree and see what it is barking. Then they run back up and glide away...drives any dog slap crazy.
I would say that if every last flying squirrel on this earth was to evaporate right now, there wouldn't be too many upset coon hunters!!!!!

We are lucky here where I hunt...we have a lot of beech trees. The bark is too slick for coons to climb them. Seen it once or twice, but almost never. Flying squirrels like beech trees. Usually when a dog appears to be treed slick on a big beech tree it was a flying squirrel.

Posted by Kler Kry on 04-26-2016 02:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by OldRook
Interesting stuff guys.

Elvis- I had a hound direct off of old Harry and a son and a grandson off a dog called Gibsons Rowdy off of old Harry. Loved them and rarely looked up a blank.. Saw some others that did occasionally. But not to the level I have seen in the couple of hunts I've attended in the last year. Whole other level

I'll second that. Old Harry threw pressure treedogs, but they were just like my first Johnson Banjo dogs that would treesolid at less than a year old, were less than 50% accurate, so intense at the tree that you had to poke them with a stick before trying to leash them at the tree or youd get bit and that was in 1973. I'd say that they have reproduced well for a lot of years.

Posted by Kler Kry on 04-26-2016 02:51 PM:

Tree happy dogs

quote:
Originally posted by OldRook
Interesting stuff guys.

Elvis- I had a hound direct off of old Harry and a son and a grandson off a dog called Gibsons Rowdy off of old Harry. Loved them and rarely looked up a blank.. Saw some others that did occasionally. But not to the level I have seen in the couple of hunts I've attended in the last year. Whole other level

Posted by Well Started on 04-26-2016 04:30 PM:

My opinion really doesn't matter but when you have guys like Bruce and others seeing a problem with it, then my opinion is it's 90% breeding. They aren't the type of people to fire up a young dog on an obvious slick tree just because they're so excited it's treeing and want to get some pictures.

Now is it simply tree power that's causing the problem? Or tree power without enough brains? Or tree power with little tracking ability or desire to run track? I don't know for sure.

I tend to believe if there was a way to measure intelligence in a dog and you bred that in, you could keep everything else and a lot of other problems would disappear. Most dogs are born with enough nose to get the job done.

Posted by OLIE SMITH on 05-02-2016 03:16 PM:

Rock Sacket Jr. is where a lot of it comes from and Nailer not saying he is the only one but a lot of it started from them.

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Posted by CAAN on 07-12-2016 06:51 PM:

You got that right Olie for back in the early 90's Lipper and Dohoney's Boone were the going stud dogs and no Lipper slick treeing did you hear about but Boone's pups would start treeing at 5 and 6 months old a friend of mine and I had two 7 months old pups that made 7 trees one night by themselves with no coons seen both dogs got more accurate as they got older but could never be sure if a tree was slick or not until you burned your light out shinning the tree and at that time every one wanted pups out of Boone and I saw many other pups out of Boone tree the first time in the hill with older dogs too much tree and not enough hunt back in those days out of that stock of dogs.

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