UKC Forums - Salem, Illinois

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-- Salem, Illinois (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928431968)

Posted by Tony Dominguez on 11-01-2015 11:59 PM:

I don't think it's so much the breeding or dog power I think it comes down to who's doing there homework the best... Ask yourself do we have dogs that can compete with Slim?!?! I personally think I've got 1 in my dog box right now that can, but ask yourself how many redbone hunters hunt as hard & is as sharp as Doug Jackson & Dustin Weed.... Those guys hunt extremely hard & are very sharp on the rules.. I've stayed at Dustin's & pleasure hunted several times, he's like family to me, but if you ever decide to go with him you better be ready to quit at day light & be in training mode! We don't have the handlers & dog men in the breed that the walker men have.... JMO

__________________
Tony Dominguez
407 E. Clarksville st
Jefferson, Tx 75657
903-650-4495 call/txt anytime
Banshee Coon Squaller
Eukanuba Dog food

Redbone:
All Grand Outlaw G-Man
GRNITECH
GRAND SHOW CH
CHKC GRCH (all time $ leader)
PKC PLATINUM CH (all time $ leader)
2016 RESERVE FALL SUPER STAKE CH (only redbone to ever make the final 4)

Grnitech PKC CH Night Stalkin roxie
2018 top 16 PKC redbone breed
2018 Top 16 PA state race
2019 National Redbone days Champion

Walker:
UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Frost Bite Zoey

UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Dirty Little Tramp
Russ Myer hunt winner $20,000
Final 4 PKC super stakes

Past:
GOLD CH GRCH GRNITECH Classy Cali
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' Outlaw Jack
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Apache Man
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Famous Outlaw Ann
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Tree Burning Moses

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-02-2015 02:04 AM:

Tony...it's not that we are not putting in the time in the woods. I hunt as much as anyone I know...and I know a lot of hunters. Our breed suffers from years of people breeding redbones not specifically developed to compete against dogs at the top level. Sure there are guys who are trying to breed for that type of dog...but look at the lines and the genes they have to work with...
There is a lot more trash and weak links (in every redbone line) in our breed than some of these other breeds and it still surfaces way to often in even the best planned crosses. Just look at how much flak true dedicated competition redbone breeders catch from pleasure hunters and some others who don't want to see the breed advance and close the gap with those breeds who are leading the pack. These are the same people who have held the breed back and kept it from reaching its full potential over the years as some of the other breeds have pulled away. It's fine to have redbones who hunt close and are slow but sure and hunt to please their owners....that's fine if that's what "you" want...
But I don't like it when pleasure hunters jump on every competition thread and try to run down or stand in the way of those who want a better competition redbone. Let them do their thing and let me and others who want to breed dogs we can win with do ours. Our breed has reproducing consistency problems and thats are only going to improve if we breed specifically for dogs that can beat these dogs who win at the top level. Those walkers are way more consistent reproducers of the traits it takes to win at that level and there is no doubt about that...NONE!
We have to quit squabbling over redbone lines and work together to isolate and then concentrate the traits that will allow our dogs to win against the best of the best...regardless of what line its from.
A few years ago when I was making linebred crosses many critics called me line blind...and now that I am breeding those proven winning line bred females to outcross males...they say see...oh look...now he is finaly outcrossing.... Anyone who has paid attention to what I have said and done over the past 5 years knows its always been part of my plan.
There is a clear pattern to what I am doing...and all one has to do is look at the trail of winners we have been turning out the past few years...and we are not the only ones with a breeding program producing more and bigger winners. Look at Wade Kuhn's program, or Scott Perkey's, or John Biggert's or the guy's with the Rabble studs and there are a few more that I am following.
The point is...certain breeders are going in the right direction and need to tune out those who try to criticize and belittle them for their work in this breed. I support everyone who is working for better competition redbones and I'm willing to work with most anyone who shares the same goal as me....to put the redbone breed back on top after lagging behind for many, many years now!
Sure it takes hard work and long nights in the woods...but that alone won't get us to the top...we need to produce better redbones than we ever have before and do it in higher percentages than we ever thought possible. If I didnt think it could be done...I would have switched breeds a long time ago because I like to win as much as anyone...but I am sure we can do it...if we work together towards a common goal and put aside the jealousy that devides this breed...
Good luck to everyone...you will see me back at it again with new and better dogs next year...onward and upward for the redbone breed!

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by ahallada on 11-02-2015 04:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Zepp
Well said Richard and Royce.....the breed has one that has proven she can compete at that level, and they do not like the chrome coloring. She is lead by Doc H - Layton and gang...and we better appreciate and embrace her for what she is, daggum special.

They have to be able to make their own breaks. Gather where the best dogs, the best judges and the best handlers in the world show up and we are just short on dog power. It is a pretty humbling experience most of the time.....but we are gaining ground.

Good luck to all who keep pushing us forward.

Thanks Mark, I appreciate the good words and your support as always. I'm not here to make excuses or explain why we didn't win this hunt. I will say this, if you're gonna compete at this level you better have a dog that hunts the full two hours and have the heart and drive to keep up. Id say if anything, that's what I've noticed is lacking in this breed since getting back in this year. You have to have heart and drive to compete at this level. It's always been the case and it still is

I hunted with the SS winner Trax dog on Thursday night. He goes until he finds a coon and doesn't quit. Didn't take long for him to get it done neither. I thought I was hunting with a 5-6 year old dog the way he slipped out of the pocket and got treed by himself. We made 7 trees total, GMan was on 5 of them and had 3 by himself with 2 coon and lost fair and square. I agree with TMack. These guys have these dogs so fine tuned and ready for these hunts. As far as the luck goes, Arnold Palmer said it best.... The more you practice , the luckier you get. Dustin Weed had some big breaks at the right time and it's because he works about as hard as anyone at this game. Those dogs in the final 3 were all handled by Pros that hunt almost every night and are at the top of their game. If you want to be a winner at these Pro level hunts, you got to do what these winners do. Have a dog with this kind of potential, and Practice hard!

It is what it is!

__________________
Dr. Allen Hallada (Doc Halladay)

Current:

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Cat Scratch Fever
(Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Aftershock x Gr.Nt.Ch. PKC Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Breanna)
2016 Finished to PKC Ch. in one week!

Dual Grand Champion CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Glissens JJ Jr. x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)
4 Generations of All Grand Nite Champions!
Timber Jack 3X and Timber Chopper over 30X
2019 Southern National Redbone Days Champion
2016 National Grand Nite Champion Redbone
2016 CHKC Redbone Days Champion
2016 PKC Super Stakes Reserve Champion
2016 CHKC Elite Shootout Winner - Texas
CHKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

Bodacious
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch.PKC. Gold Ch.CHKC CH. Outlaw G-Man x Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. CHKC Ch., PKC Gold Ch. Classy Cali)

Past:
Gr.Nt.Ch.Ch. Dawns Timber Jack
1988 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner
1989 UKC World Champion Redbone
1989 Purina Outstanding Redbone Coonhound
#2 Historic Redbone Sire/ Top 20 All Breeds
American Redbone Coonhound Assoc. Hall of Fame

Gr.Nt.Ch. Bussrow Bottom Brandy II
1991 American Redbone Days Champion
1992 AKC World Champion Redbone
1992 ACHA World Champion Redbone
1992 Wisconsin State Champion
1994 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex
Produced 2 Nt. Ch. , 1 Gr.Nt.Ch. out of 2 litters and two Redbone Days Winners

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. PKC Gold Ch. Layton's Classy Cali
2012 UKC World Champion Redbone and 7th Place Overall
2012, 2013, 2014, 2015 UKC World Champion Redbone Female
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - Goodsprings, AL
2015 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Series Race - 3rd Place Overall
2016 PKC Blue Ribbon Pro Hunt Winner - New Albany, MS
2016 PKC Texas State Race Winner
2016 PKC Redbone Breed Race Winner
PKC All Time Money Winning Redbone

PKC Ch. Gr.Nt.Ch. Coffman's Smokin Red Buck
2016 UKC World Hunt 5th Place and World Champion Redbone
2016 National Redbone Days Overall Winner

Gr.Nt.Ch. Reinhart's Central Page
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Brandy II)

Gr.Nt.Ch. Too the Maxx
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Jenkins Crying Katie)
1992 National Redbone Days Champion

Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Ambraw River Rock
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack x Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch. Hersh's Huntin Red Kate)
1992 US Redbone Days Opposite Sex

Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle
1986 American Redbone Days All Red Hunt Winner

Nt.Ch. Timber Mace
(Gr.Nt.Ch. Timber Jack X Nt.Ch. Tree Bustin Annabelle)
Mother of Gr.Nt.Ch. Babb's Hazel

Nt. Ch. Timber Shock
(Gr.Nt.Ch.Timber Jack x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Jessie)

Gr. Ch. Nt. Ch. Squaw Mountain Goldie
(Direct Daughter of Gr.Nt.Ch.Smokey Mountain Brandy)
1990 Autumn Oaks Best of Show Winner
1988 Indiana State Champion

Posted by okreddog56 on 11-02-2015 08:51 PM:

DOC I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU HEART AND DRIVE IS THE 2 MAIN THINGS THE BREED LACKS,THAT IS THE 2 HARDEST THINGS TO KEEP IN THEM OUNCE YOU GET IT THERE TOO.DOGS THAT HAVE THIS ARE HARD ON A HANDLER WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG,THEY RUN FAST GAME,SOME ARE NOT LOCKDOWN TREEDOGS WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG AND SOME SAY THEY ARE TO MUCH LIKE A WALKER AND THEY CULL THEM.BUT THESE DOGS IF YOU CAN TOUGH IT OUT WHEN THEY ARE YOUNG MAKE HARD TO BEAT COONDOGS THAT CAN GO ALL NIGHT LONG FOR 4 OR 5 NIGHTS IN A ROW AND STILL BE SHARPE

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-02-2015 09:57 PM:

Is it "drive" or is it "speed"? I have had plenty with all of the heart that you could ask for.

Posted by wbond on 11-02-2015 10:07 PM:

Speed kills in every sport at every level look at what the Royals speed did to the Mets

__________________
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. ~~ Thomas Jefferson

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"

Thomas Jefferson

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
Thomas Jefferson

Posted by ahallada on 11-03-2015 12:00 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Is it "drive" or is it "speed"? I have had plenty with all of the heart that you could ask for.

When I started bear hunting 25 years ago , the guys I hunted with were always commenting on how the Walker dogs were their favorites because of their stamina and drive. They said they got away from other breeds because they would quit on tracks too many times. I thought they were nuts since I was hunting dogs that never needed a kick in the butt to go hunting and had about as much drive as I wanted for my purpose. After hunting a few years I started to see the differences in a good bear dog and a good coonhound. Many of our bear hunts involved 2 to 4 hour tracks and these dogs ran about as hard as I've ever seen a dog run. They needed long strong legs , and they needed a lot of drive to keep up all day running hard. They rarely got a day off for about 2 weeks of this.

When I started competition hunting in 1978 it was rare to have a Redbone that would stay out hunting the full 3 hours. Most would quit after an hour or less. Many would leave with the other dogs for awhile and check back if no track was found. When I started hauling Timber Jack to the bigger hunts, I would commonly hear "that dog don't hunt like no Redbone" and "that dog is a Walker in a red coat" and "that's the best Redbone I've ever seen go". These all bugged me because I hunted with just as many Walker dogs that were lazy. It was this mentality of Walker hunters that drove me and Bill Wallock to compete with and beat the best they had to offer.

Nothing has changed in my opinion. If you want to win you have to have a dog that finds and trees coon until that stop watch goes off. Every time they get turned loose they need to bust in there and get treed somewhere. When things get tough they need to be tougher than the others and be able to tree coon in tough conditions. If they get off on their own and get treed on their own it's even better. When I say drive and heart I mean a dog that doesn't quit hunting until you are done hunting, no matter what is happening in the cast and what the other dogs are doing.

Posted by elvis on 11-03-2015 12:14 AM:

You fellers are missing one important fact in my opinion.
Those top handlers hunting those top hounds couldnt care less what color a dog is, they are gonna hunt the best based on performance only. If the tables were turned and over on the walker board they were talking about how they were totaly dominated by the redbones, i garantee you they would be after some of that red blood.
If you guys wanna compete with them, take those good red bitches and try breeding them to some top reproduceing walker stud dogs, register them xbred and when you get what you want work them back into the red pr status
to me it just seems like the smart thing to do.

Posted by oklared on 11-03-2015 12:17 AM:

THERE IS NO SUB FOR SPEED, NONE

__________________
HOME OF 2010 HIGH SCOREING REDBONE FEMALE, DUAL CH Y2KD, #7 REPRODUCING RED FEMALE
NT.Ch. WINNER AT REDBONE SEC. 2008
3RD PL. NT.CH. 2009 BATTLE OF BREEDS AT ADA OKLA.
4TH PLACE R.Q.E 2010
2ND PLACE OVERALL AT ZONE 4 AND DOUBLE CAST WINNER 2010
WENT TO 2010 WORLD HUNT
AMERICAN REDBONE ASSOCIATION HIGH SCOREING REDBONE FEMALE OF THE 2010 WORLD HUNT
OVERALL HI SCOREING DOG AT 2010 BBCHA BLUE TIC SECTIONAL
GR.NT.CH. AT 12 and A HALF
MADE-EM SEE RED

Posted by brian layton on 11-03-2015 04:10 AM:

Yall r lacking speed finding a coon and locating a tree . that's speaking from what i know of the winningest redbone at this time. sorry if this offends anybody!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-03-2015 02:11 PM:

A few people seem to think that all we are trying to do is produce a World Champion coondog. If that were the case, then sure all we have to do is breed a Redbone to a top walker dog. I mean, red color is dominant so the pups will be red but will they be "Redbones"? But for most everyone that I know and talk to that isn't true. We all want to produce a true Redbone that can win. That is a lot harder if not almost impossible. But I for one am going to keep on trying. If I just wanted to win, then I would go out and buy me a walker dog. But I want to win with a bona fide 100% Redbone. I guess that I am just stubborn. (Some of my walker dog friends say I am just stupid.)

Posted by brian layton on 11-03-2015 02:16 PM:

I will take that as a compliment richard. i still love you!

Posted by jerhovt on 11-03-2015 02:24 PM:

-Richard-
I agree 100%!!

Also If you win with a crossbreed you won with just that not a Redbone!! I have nothing against X Breeds but to win the world hunt with a X Breed and to say you were the first Redbone to win the world hunt would be false advertising because its not a true Redbone its a X Breed no matter how you look at it. Just my thoughts

__________________
Hounds I own
PR LT Redcoat Wait Till Sundown(Dual Grand T-Top Dark Timber Moose X Longtrail Redcoat Reaper)

PR Long Trail Redcoat Lucky Walter (Dual GR T-Top Dark Timber Moose xSML Dark Timber Bobbie Ann) co owner Ron Wolters

PR Long Trail Redcoat Reaper(GRCHPR Hershs Huntin Red 90/4 Life Gun HTX X CH PR Stone&Redcoat DBL Moon Kate II) co owner Ron Wolters

Hounds Im hunting
PR Soggy Bottom Dark Timber Addy : owners Buck Ratliff/Mike Laster

NTCH GRCH Dark Timber Red Angus : owners Buck Ratliff and Myself

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-03-2015 03:04 PM:

Brian, I thought that would get your attention. She is still a World Champion Coonhound. And you are still a World Champion trainer/handler. I don't care what they say.

Posted by brian layton on 11-03-2015 03:11 PM:

It was meant to be an honest evaluation from what I've seen whilee competing at high level competition. i wasn't bragging! I was using thee hound that I'm qualified to use n my example and what i said is truth!

Posted by elvis on 11-03-2015 06:20 PM:

i guess what i was trying to say is that its awful hard to compete at the highest level if color is your first priority.

those top handlers are hunting walker dogs because they are the best they can find ability-wise, not because they are walkers.

you are severely handicapping yourself if you will only hunt 5% of the dogs available because of color.

Posted by brian layton on 11-03-2015 06:26 PM:

Dang marv! Your making since to me.

Posted by jerhovt on 11-03-2015 06:37 PM:

I know Im not colorblind Id hunt anything that will tree a coon. I like the Idea of maybe winning with a breed that hasnt been there yet. Like I said I have nothing against crossbreds anything that can win at a national level deserves credit dog and handler( and the rite to brag a little). The redbones can be bred to be better Im sure and it will take people continuing to stick it out and not jump the fence or it will never happen honestly. I dont want to beat a walker with a walker I want to beat a walker with Redbone thats why I do it (I like being the underdog I guess). Im new to competitions I did some when I was young but this is the first year Ive really done them never seen a big hunt yet but Id like to and Id like to hope I can do it with a redbone someday.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 11-03-2015 06:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by elvis
i guess what i was trying to say is that its awful hard to compete at the highest level if color is your first priority.

those top handlers are hunting walker dogs because they are the best they can find ability-wise, not because they are walkers.

you are severely handicapping yourself if you will only hunt 5% of the dogs available because of color.

I beat a lot of good walker dogs in many of the hunts I go to...in fact...when I win with a redbone I almost always beat walkers to get the win. I have not won a world championship...yet!
But I've been in the top 20 of world championships five times...three in the past year alone. I always feel outnumbered when I pull into a hunt....but I just tell myself It is never more than 3 to 1....and I always have mine ready. The day will come when somebody will breed, train or just luck onto a redbone that can dominate the best of any breed and win that world title. It's not like there are not serious guys who are investing a lot of time and money to bring the redbone breed closer to the ability level it needs to be at to make luck less of a factor ....so its just a matter of time. If we breed redbones that can beat these top shelf walkers....lots of guys who only care about pure performance will gladly pick up the leash of a top redbone....if it can win....
We just need to keep at it and not be afraid to try new things in our breeding program. That doesn't mean cross breeding...it means identifying, isolating and concentrating the traits needed to win against top level dogs...and step one for many is to go see for yourself what we are up against and start using that as your measuring stick. I think many will find we have been using a ruler while they are using a yardstick....

Posted by jerhovt on 11-03-2015 07:31 PM:

Ive only seen the redbones that are in my yard hunt!! But Ive watched some big name Walkers go when I was younger thats my measuring utensil. Id like to go just spectate a cast at one of these bigger hunts to update my measuring utensil and see how the big hunts work!!!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-04-2015 02:23 PM:

Marv, I have been handicapped all of my life. If you want to see what is out there, then load Ol' Red up and take him to one of those "big" hunts. Drawing out with those big name dogs and trying to beat them is a lot more fun than just spectating.

Posted by jerhovt on 11-04-2015 02:36 PM:

Richard
The biggest hunt Ill be at this winter will be southern redbone days That is a for sure thing and I will be hunting a Redbone which one I dont know yet!!! Odds are if I make the trip to another big hunt and plan on staying up Ill bring a dog and hunt it its against my nature not to!!

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