UKC Forums - couple of quick rules questions

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 62 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- couple of quick rules questions (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928431292)

Posted by shadinc on 10-06-2015 01:47 PM:

I interpret the rule as saying telemetry CANNOT influence ANYTHING about the outcome of the cast. You are only allowed to use it only for YOUR dog's protection. If another dog is about to locate on what might be the only coon you're going to see, that would affect the cast. In this case you scratch your dog and go get him.

Posted by pttm08 on 10-06-2015 09:18 PM:

I agree with many on here that no you can not use the garmin to call a timeout for danger. If your dog is in danger and you feel it is bad then you need to withdrawal and go get your dog it is not fair to anyone else's dog that is running track. Myself if it was my dog you can bet I am withdrawing and going to get him. Now I have several spots you turn loose close to the road. 80% of the time the head down the creek away from the road however I do know they can very easily head up the creek and cross the road.

#2 Babbling is hard to prove. However with UKC versus other registries all the rule states is you do not have to strike your dog under a minute. There is nothing that says that if you do that your dog has to carry on that track like some.

My two cents worth.

__________________
Michael Armes
Angle Plantation Kennels
540-598-0173
Home of

PR CH Big Blue Buster HTX
PR CH Angle Plantation's Red Jasper

Let's get Ticked

Posted by MIDNITE BLUE on 10-07-2015 02:40 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
"He" would get a timeout from you?????....you cannot call timeout for one dog while others are loose.
That said, if it's based on telemetry it appears that he can ask for a vote and if he fails to get majority his only option is to scratch his dog and go get him.
In your so called "telemetry rules" you posted, it doesn't reference a non-hunting judge, so it appears that the person with the dog heading for a road calls for a vote.
I vaguely remember this discussion before and IIRC Allen got involved because it was being interpreted incorrectly and as such could have been a real convenient excuse to call a time out when needed for other reasons.
As to the babbling dog in one minute...yes he can be minused for babbling in the first minute...but it doesn't surprise me the question was answered this way.

Just a ?? Why couldn't you have a timeout for a single dog. Just wondering if you could elaborate. Thanks

Posted by nickhagerman on 10-07-2015 03:09 AM:

? 2

The way I interpret the minute rule is if you strike under the minute on babble as long as it barks atleast once every 8 minutes it can not be minused unless you can prove they're is no track evident(near impossible). The rules say the dog only has to bark once every 8 minutes to show a track.
So how would you minus a dog that is struck under the minute where you can't prove their isn't a track there yet he's still barking atleast once every 8 minutes?
After he shuts up you put the 8 on him if it catches he's minused if not then it stays as is.
I could be wrong but this is how I understand it

__________________
Hagerman's Eagle Lake kennel's

GrNitech Eagle Lake Mojane
2022 Silver lake walker sec. CW
2022 walker days CW
2022 Wyatt rqe 1st place
2023 lieters ford rqe 2nd place
2023 TOC top 96
Qualified for TOC 2023, 2024
Qualified ukc world 2022,2023

Mojo Jane Doe

Nick Hagerman (260)237-0392

Posted by nickhagerman on 10-07-2015 03:12 AM:

Garmin

Also if call time out for the garmin is to help keep the dogs outta harms way it does not say he must be struck in or not

Posted by msinc on 10-07-2015 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MIDNITE BLUE
Just a ?? Why couldn't you have a timeout for a single dog. Just wondering if you could elaborate. Thanks

Certainly, unless only one dog is left in the cast it wouldn't be fair to call time out for one dog and not the others. The dogs all have to hunt {be turned loose in the woods to try and find a coon, or make mistakes doing it}the full two hours and all of them need to be turned loose to try both for the same timespan and at the same time. If one dog was allowed or afforded a time out when the others are "in the game" that dog is not participating in the same "test" as the others, he had time off from possible minus points. Remember, a competition hunt is a contest of the dogs in the cast, not individual dogs one at a time. Those are the reasoning behind not doing it...the simple answer is that there is not a rule that allows for it. For every rule {or lack of a rule} there is a reason behind it...I always try to give the reasons that I know, but I may miss one or two. Knowing why can help make it a little easier to understand.
Another way to help understand is to run thru a worst case scenario...One dog blast off on a deer or trees a possum...before the judges buddies dog gets in on the mischief the judge calls a timeout for his buddies dog to avoid minus points. Even though your dog is out hunting like he is supposed to you got cheated because a dog that should have been minused was not. That single dog had the protection of a time out...why should he have that luxury and yours had to remain and do what he was supposed to. In this case didn't your dog perform better and distinguish himself???? How could it be a fair test if all dogs aren't subject to the same hunt???

Edit: One other thing that has to be looked at would be if we allowed one dog to have a time out then when the other dogs finished their 2 hours the dog that enjoyed the timeout would have to finish his 2 hours alone...this could be a clear advantage over the others for some dogs, not such an advantage for others. Still unfair either way.

Posted by JiM on 10-07-2015 03:07 PM:

Re: ? 2

quote:
Originally posted by nickhagerman
The way I interpret the minute rule is if you strike under the minute on babble as long as it barks atleast once every 8 minutes it can not be minused unless you can prove they're is no track evident(near impossible). The rules say the dog only has to bark once every 8 minutes to show a track.
So how would you minus a dog that is struck under the minute where you can't prove their isn't a track there yet he's still barking atleast once every 8 minutes?
After he shuts up you put the 8 on him if it catches he's minused if not then it stays as is.
I could be wrong but this is how I understand it

What you are misunderstanding is the need to "prove" there is no track. In fact, the judge is not required to prove anything when making a babbling call. The reason is as you stated above, it is " near impossible" to prove or disprove a dog is babbling.
The fact is all the judge needs is to believe the dog is babbling. That's it. Nothing else required. Babbling is a pure judgement call. It can be made anytime the judge believes a dog was struck where there is no track. The call can be made before the minute, after the minute, literally ANYTIME the judge believes a dog was struck where there is no track. If the judge says a dog is minused for babbling, that dog IS MINUSED and stays minused until either a majority of the cast or the MOH overturns the call.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Posted by stlavsa on 10-07-2015 04:15 PM:

Fellas I'm trying to get up to speed here, never been in a competition hunt.

So say one of the dogs in the cast is headed to danger, what does the "time out" do? And how do you fix the fact that the dog is headed to danger? Do you have to go retrieve the dog? Call him in? I'm guessing your not allowed to do that other wise?

I'm just not sure what happens and why there is a time out.

__________________
Lone Pine Hammer

Posted by msinc on 10-07-2015 10:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stlavsa
Fellas I'm trying to get up to speed here, never been in a competition hunt.

So say one of the dogs in the cast is headed to danger, what does the "time out" do? And how do you fix the fact that the dog is headed to danger? Do you have to go retrieve the dog? Call him in? I'm guessing your not allowed to do that other wise?

I'm just not sure what happens and why there is a time out.

Most of us are trying to get "up to speed" here on this one as well and many of us are not new...a lot of guys have posted some pretty definite answers to the original question but the rules are not that clear.
All that aside, to answer your question, one dog heading for danger...the time out allows you to go and try to secure the dog so he is not in any more danger without having to scratch him. Scratch means this hunt is over for this dog.
"How do you fix the fact that he is headed to danger???" That is the real question, if you don't want to see anything happen to him you have to stop him somehow. This is one of the reasons I always say the command "here" is the most important one and it can save you dogs life. The original question was posed the same, with the addition of "and still stay in the hunt??"
"Do you have to go retrieve the dog??" The smart aleck jerk answer is of course, "No, you can stand there and let him get hit by a train!!!" The real world answer is absolutely if you believe he is really in danger. I guess you might not go get him if you are really sure he wont go on the road or other danger.
I would suggest you read over the night hunt rules, there are several reasons a cast can call a time out. There is a section, "Rule 7." that specifically deals with time outs. As to why you cant call time out for just one dog you might want to read my previous post above.

Posted by buck brush on 10-07-2015 10:54 PM:

just one ?????

what would you have done before the garmin how would you have known where the dog was

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725

gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

Posted by Harry Middleton on 10-07-2015 11:22 PM:

Before Garmin........obviously you would not have known. You just hoped for the best. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. What did I do before I had a cell phone? I waited until I got home and checked my messages on the home phone. But the cell phone has made things much easier for me. The Garmin rule can be used effectively, if used appropriately and in good sportsmanship........and not for selfishness. So many variations on everyone's opinion on this topic, as well as other threads posted. We should respect each other's opinion and just do what you think is the "right" thing to do.

Posted by rance56 on 10-07-2015 11:25 PM:

The right thing to do is what the rules an ukc tell us to do

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by Harry Middleton on 10-07-2015 11:58 PM:

Exactly.

Posted by J I Allen on 10-08-2015 12:13 AM:

MSINC, you cannot call timeout for one dog during the hunt so a handler can go get his dog away from a dangerous place. When timeout is called all dogs are in timeout. If 2 dogs are trailing and timeout is called for someone to get a dog out of pocket they will have strike points deleted which is not fair to them. A sportsman would withdraw his dog, go get him and not worry about having to withdraw his dog from the hunt.

Posted by msinc on 10-08-2015 12:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by J I Allen
MSINC, you cannot call timeout for one dog during the hunt so a handler can go get his dog away from a dangerous place. When timeout is called all dogs are in timeout. If 2 dogs are trailing and timeout is called for someone to get a dog out of pocket they will have strike points deleted which is not fair to them. A sportsman would withdraw his dog, go get him and not worry about having to withdraw his dog from the hunt.

You might want to read my posts in their entirety....I was asked this question by a couple of posters and have said from the very first the exact same thing you are telling me now...

Posted by stlavsa on 10-08-2015 01:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Most of us are trying to get "up to speed" here on this one as well and many of us are not new...a lot of guys have posted some pretty definite answers to the original question but the rules are not that clear.
All that aside, to answer your question, one dog heading for danger...the time out allows you to go and try to secure the dog so he is not in any more danger without having to scratch him. Scratch means this hunt is over for this dog.
"How do you fix the fact that he is headed to danger???" That is the real question, if you don't want to see anything happen to him you have to stop him somehow. This is one of the reasons I always say the command "here" is the most important one and it can save you dogs life. The original question was posed the same, with the addition of "and still stay in the hunt??"
"Do you have to go retrieve the dog??" The smart aleck jerk answer is of course, "No, you can stand there and let him get hit by a train!!!" The real world answer is absolutely if you believe he is really in danger. I guess you might not go get him if you are really sure he wont go on the road or other danger.
I would suggest you read over the night hunt rules, there are several reasons a cast can call a time out. There is a section, "Rule 7." that specifically deals with time outs. As to why you cant call time out for just one dog you might want to read my previous post above.

Thanks.

__________________
Lone Pine Hammer

Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-08-2015 04:03 PM:

Seems to me that this issue is being made much more difficult than it needs to be. #2 in the telementary section gives pretty clear direction for how to handle this situation. At least that is my opinion (and thats not worth much) LOL.

My interpretation is that you can look at the garmin to determine if you dog is in danger. With the NON-Hunting judge, the decision is strictly HIS to make. He can make a decision to call time out (without the need for a cast vote) The same as he can minus a dog for (when he believes) a dog moved from its original location after being called treed.

There reason being is that a NON-hunting judge is supposed to have been hand picked by the club officials to be knowledgable of the night hunt HONOR rules, and also be very experienced in the (SPORT) of coonhunting. This same person is required "by their appointment to this position" to be NON-Discriminatory in their decision making. Meaning paying no favors to anybody while judging their cast. It shouldn't matter to anyone if there is (one) (two) or (three or more) dogs in danger, when the cast becomes AWARE that a dog is in danger, the rules require a time out to her called.

Now if ANY cast member is not satisfied with the call of the NON-Hunting judge, they still retain the right to place a question on the card, bring that question back to the master of hounds, and then if still not satisfied, file a formal complaint. You probably won't win-BUT you still retain that right.

Now here we go again, that dreaded term (SPORTSMANSHIP)
Calling time out is the (SPORTSMAN) thing to do. BUT we all know in todays competition circuit, the decision to call time out, is more often than not, based on the fact of who's dog is in danger, or how many dogs are in danger at the same time. If you happen to be the odd man out in this situation, then you are going to be left to exercise your right to WITHDRAW your dog from the event and come back on another day to compete again.

So to sum it all up, with a hunting judge-you can look at your garmin, make your decision as to (is my dog in imminent danger) ask the judge for a time out, (if not satisfied) ask for a cast vote, (if not satisfied) make you own decision as to withdraw or not withdraw.

With Non-Hunting judge- Judge can look at garmin-make his/her decision (is dog/dogs) in imminent danger. (if You are not satisfied) Place a question on the card, make you own decision as to withdraw or not withdraw. If you decide to withdraw but are still dissatisfied that the non-hunting judge forced you to withdraw unnecessarily, It is (my opinion) that your only recourse in that situation, is to go back to the club, wait for your cast to return and then voice your concern to the Master of hounds so that the master of hounds is aware of what transpired. Then if/when enough complaints are reported on this particular judge, the club can then make an informed decision (whether or not) to continue using this individual in a Non-Hunting judge capacity.

Hope this help, sorry to be so long winded.

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

Posted by msinc on 10-08-2015 10:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
It shouldn't matter to anyone if there is (one) (two) or (three or more) dogs in danger, when the cast becomes AWARE that a dog is in danger, the rules require a time out to her called.

I like your post Mr. Mayles, but I am sorry I have to disagree with the above statement..."The rules REQUIRE a time out?????" Rule 7 is clear in the beginning..."Judge or majority of cast if hunting judge is used MAY call time out in accordance with the following...."

Could you please tell us where the 'Telemetry Section is??? Or post "#2" ???? Thanks.

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-08-2015 11:04 PM:

So what's ukc answer.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Posted by Harry Middleton on 10-08-2015 11:50 PM:

I think they're out to lunch.

Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-09-2015 03:28 AM:

Msinc i referred to the #2 section of the telementary rule that Mr. Middleton originally posted on the 1st page of this thread. But that language is taken verbatim from the UKC hunt packet Master of Hounds checklist, that is required to be read to all hunters before sending casts to the woods.

I agree that I used the wrong term by stating "REQUIRED" when the rule in fact states "MAY" But I'm of the opinion that when the word MAY is used in this particular application, that word is then giving Approval to call time out based on the fact that a dog in the cast is in imminent danger. I don't believe the term "MAY" used in this particular application, is intentionally placed there to give a judge an option on calling time out, but in reality it gives the judge the "authorization" to call time out, (without question) when a Non-Hunting Judge is being used.

I could be completely wrong on my understanding of the above mentioned application, but that is my interpretation of the intent of the language of the time out rule, as it relates to the word MAY call time out.

msinc, if I misunderstood the intent of your above post, please accept my most humble apology. I have great respect for your insight and knowledge and I really appreciate the fact that on those times when we sometimes disagree when can do so in a respectful manner.

Take Care and Enjoy our great outdoors. For after all this IS the grandest time of all the year to be in the woods!!

Posted by Rocketman55 on 10-09-2015 03:28 AM:

Posted by msinc on 10-09-2015 12:28 PM:

Yes sir, we are in total agreement. Absolutely no apology is necessary, and thank you for your kind words!!! I believe that the word "may" gives a non-hunting judge the authority to choose. This is one of those cases where I would go a step further and say that as someone who has had and seen way too many good dogs killed or injured I almost think it needs to be a requirement. Sadly, I don't know if we will ever see that because then it could and would be used to cheat. This is one of those real kick in the tail things we deal with in the rules...and I think a source of confusion for many folks just starting out...you have a rule that says one thing {always follow the rules}, yet a situation that really dictates common sense to do another {dogs and handlers safety first and foremost.}
I asked about the "Telemetry Rules" because other than in the hunt packet I have been unable to find them anywhere else...I am sure they must be posted somewhere on UKC's website.
This is the best time of the year to be in the woods...my dog treed a house cat last night!!!!

Posted by shadinc on 10-09-2015 02:13 PM:

All of this started because some one wants to collect his dog and "stay in the hunt". He can't. Period. Telemetry can, in no way, affect the cast. What you see on your Garmin is for your use only, not the entire cast. If you want your dog, scratch him and go get him. To ask for a timeout in this situation is poor sportsmanship.

Posted by JiM on 10-09-2015 02:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
All of this started because some one wants to collect his dog and "stay in the hunt". He can't. Period. Telemetry can, in no way, affect the cast. What you see on your Garmin is for your use only, not the entire cast. If you want your dog, scratch him and go get him. To ask for a timeout in this situation is poor sportsmanship.

Exactly! Well said.

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:38 PM.

Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
Show all 62 posts from this thread on one page