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-- Strike point suggestion (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928430805)

I do not have a problem with a tight mouth dog whether comp hunting or pleasure hunting. The problem I have is why run the risk of awarding a babbler with 100 strike points. The way the rule reads a babbler is defined as a dog barking where there is no evidence of a track. Now how can you prove there is no track unless the dog is running and barking down the middle of a dirt road. Or am I just missing something.

Better yet a man could argue that a dog should be scratched for babbling when he comes slick treed. There is definitely not a track going up a tree with no.coon in it.

Another advantage of loading first strike to 75 with third and fourth strike to 25 is that it evens the playing field between three and four dog casts for high scoring dog of the hunt. Chances are the dog getting fourth tree in a four dog cast isn't going to win anyway unless by luck.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

quote:

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Originally posted by Rocketman55
Mr. John Duemmer, I, many times agree with your assessment of hunting situations, and have great respect for your hunting knowledge, but on your last post I feel the need to respectfully disagree with your statement that, THE WAY A DOG USES IT'S MOUTH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ITS , DRIVE OR TRACK SPEED (OR it's ability to tree coon)

You see, It has been known for many many years that a silent training dog has an added advantage at treeing coons because that style allows that tight mouthed dog to sneak right up behind the coon before that coon even knows a dog is in pursuit. Thus is has a greater surprise attack advantage.

This is not new news, everybody knows that. Even the founding fathers of coon hunting were aware of that, and that is why they felt a silent trailing hound should be disqualified, because it was/is unsportsman like to ambush/sneak up on a coon by running the track with their mouth shut. That is why the point system is staggered, to give more credit to the dog that opens first on a coon track, so the coon knows it is being chased.

So I guess my point is that for the most part, the tighter your dog is on the ground, the bigger the advantage it has for treeing the coon. So YES in my opinion, a dog keeping its mouth shut DOES affect its ability to tree a coon.

Just as it is unsportsman like to sucker punch a guy sitting on a bar stool, it is also unsportsman like to sneak up on a coon without opening your mouth to let the coon know you are coming.

Let the rules in place scratch the babbler, and then all is well with everyone.

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1. Cut dogs
2. Start minute
3. Dog or dogs barking in the first 55 seconds strike points will not be recorded unless followed by an IMMEDIATE tree call. If treed dog or dogs will receive normal strike point position and tree position.
4.Judge counts down last 5 seconds out loud any dog or dogs barking during the last 5 seconds to receive 50 strike pionts each. All others receive 25 after the last 5 seconds.
5. If dog or dogs are barking after the first minute has elapsed. Normal strike point system apply.

As we all know on most comp hunts dogs are cut loose close to feeder buckets.
And in some cases (on the first drop) the hunting guide is the only one that knows this.
The above suggestion (or some form of it) forces the strike points to be split. Which is suppose to happen anyway under to rules that is in place. But I have yet to see that happen. It also takes care of the babbler to some degree. And make the comp hunt a little more enjoyable on a person to person level.

A silent trailer is fine if you want to slaughter coons. Go get one and do it. There is another reason, besides the unsportmanlike issue, with allowing/awarding silent dogs in competition. They will win, no question. But then people will breed for it. Sooner or later just about all silent dogs figure out that they can catch coons on the ground and that is exactly what they do. I got no problem with anyone who like/wants that, but it is not my idea of coon hunting and I think most hunters would agree that simply cutting a dog loose and having it go out in to the night woods and kill coons on the ground is not very enjoyable. Neither is cutting loose a dog and the next time he barks it's treed 800 yards away.
This was all decided long ago that in the UKC it is not to be part of fair chase sportsman like competition.

quote:

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Originally posted by MIDNITE BLUE
1. Cut dogs
2. Start minute
3. Dog or dogs barking in the first 55 seconds strike points will not be recorded unless followed by an IMMEDIATE tree call. If treed dog or dogs will receive normal strike point position and tree position.
4.Judge counts down last 5 seconds out loud any dog or dogs barking during the last 5 seconds to receive 50 strike pionts each. All others receive 25 after the last 5 seconds.
5. If dog or dogs are barking after the first minute has elapsed. Normal strike point system apply.

As we all know on most comp hunts dogs are cut loose close to feeder buckets.
And in some cases (on the first drop) the hunting guide is the only one that knows this.
The above suggestion (or some form of it) forces the strike points to be split. Which is suppose to happen anyway under to rules that is in place. But I have yet to see that happen. It also takes care of the babbler to some degree. And make the comp hunt a little more enjoyable on a person to person level.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sleepy head
Never heard anyone say it was unsportsmanlike to have a dog not bark on track, as for quit dog treeing more coon that should be the objective

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rocketman55
Mr. John Duemmer, I, many times agree with your assessment of hunting situations, and have great respect for your hunting knowledge, but on your last post I feel the need to respectfully disagree with your statement that, THE WAY A DOG USES IT'S MOUTH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ITS , DRIVE OR TRACK SPEED (OR it's ability to tree coon)

You see, It has been known for many many years that a silent training dog has an added advantage at treeing coons because that style allows that tight mouthed dog to sneak right up behind the coon before that coon even knows a dog is in pursuit. Thus is has a greater surprise attack advantage.

This is not new news, everybody knows that. Even the founding fathers of coon hunting were aware of that, and that is why they felt a silent trailing hound should be disqualified, because it was/is unsportsman like to ambush/sneak up on a coon by running the track with their mouth shut. That is why the point system is staggered, to give more credit to the dog that opens first on a coon track, so the coon knows it is being chased.

So I guess my point is that for the most part, the tighter your dog is on the ground, the bigger the advantage it has for treeing the coon. So YES in my opinion, a dog keeping its mouth shut DOES affect its ability to tree a coon.

Just as it is unsportsman like to sucker punch a guy sitting on a bar stool, it is also unsportsman like to sneak up on a coon without opening your mouth to let the coon know you are coming.

Let the rules in place scratch the babbler, and then all is well with everyone.

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__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
A silent trailer is fine if you want to slaughter coons. Go get one and do it. There is another reason, besides the unsportmanlike issue, with allowing/awarding silent dogs in competition. They will win, no question. But then people will breed for it. Sooner or later just about all silent dogs figure out that they can catch coons on the ground and that is exactly what they do. I got no problem with anyone who like/wants that, but it is not my idea of coon hunting and I think most hunters would agree that simply cutting a dog loose and having it go out in to the night woods and kill coons on the ground is not very enjoyable. Neither is cutting loose a dog and the next time he barks it's treed 800 yards away.
This was all decided long ago that in the UKC it is not to be part of fair chase sportsman like competition.

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Leave it the same or change it? Put a countdown on the TREE & who struck 1st or 4th will have little relevance on the hunt and the importance will be placed back on who TREED 1st where it belongs. A 1st tree dog 4th strike dog will lose to a 1st strike 2nd tree dog every time and that's just sad.

__________________
Shane

quote:

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Originally posted by MIDNITE BLUE
I agree with you totally on the silent trial dog issue also.
But there is also a problem when handlers are striking dogs before the judge can even have time to start a stopwatch. Then you have 3 handlers discussing you struck first, second, third and fourth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
So, if a dog strikes in the first minute but the coon happens to run for a while then the dog doing his job gets penalized???? Exactly how long is "immediately"?????
I wouldn't find this enjoyable at all.
I have to ask, and don't get me wrong here, it's not that I don't believe you guys...but are there really this many babblers in the hunts???? Not just in the hunts, but taking so much advantage of the "real" coon dogs that we need a rule change???? Because the few I have seen, again, don't get me wrong here, they do exist, I have seen them but what I saw was of just about all the babblers is that they were so stupid as to not really amount to much competition anyway. Most of them went on to make other mistakes and get scratched or inevitably just plain beat by the better dogs.
What I know of the class and capabilities I've seen of the last several babblers I was with, if I couldn't beat them I'd be looking for another dog, not another rule!!!!

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T

quote:

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Originally posted by shane_atchison
Leave it the same or change it? Put a countdown on the TREE & who struck 1st or 4th will have little relevance on the hunt and the importance will be placed back on who TREED 1st where it belongs. A 1st tree dog 4th strike dog will lose to a 1st strike 2nd tree dog every time and that's just sad.

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__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
Yes sir, we are in total agreement on both issues...Rule 2.{E} covers your scenario. "Points may be split for position when called positions cannot be determined." Now, if that is not being done than we have a judge problem. It is his call. One thing I would like to point out and some handlers don't know or realize...just because the judge says "we are going to split the strike {tree} does not mean you have to be in on the split...you can take the next available which is less points. Which you just might want to do if you think it's a possum for example. So, four dogs open the judge says split, you say I'll take next available, which is 25.

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quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Dave i guess it would be a pretty boring world if we all liked the same thing in a dog, i have my doubts that the guys that wrote the original rules excluded the silent dogs because they felt they had some sort of advantage over an open mouth dog. My opinion is that anyone with a dog and an entry fee should be able to compete, if a guy with a three legged,one eyed,silent cur dog beats me because his dog treed more coon im fine with that.
If the silent dog truly had this advantage the $KC. guys would all be packin one. Rules are rules but they should always be designed to reward the dog that trees the most coon in the least amount of time, that is after all the original reason a bunch of hunters got togeather with their dogs to compete, and they had no strike points, they just counted hides.

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__________________
( White Light What A Night )

Look the simplest way to remedy this is just to do away with the minute. If the dog barks it is put on the paper and you shine the light on it and minus it then scratch it for babbling.

That's why the problem of babblers is new, because now they have a full minute to get out of sight and put doubt into what they are doing before they are struck.

When I first started hunting the hunts many years ago if the dog barked three times in the first 10 feet you had to strike him and the judge would shine him and if he wasn't working a track you were minused/scratched.

The minute is the CAUSE of all this.

__________________
Let's go huntin

I agree Rip. The min rule is part of it. The biggest part. Dont need a grace period for the barking idiots.

__________________
Michael Ghorley

Is there other hunting sports where its unsportsmanlike to hunt quietly?

quote:

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Originally posted by sleepy head
Never heard anyone say it was unsportsmanlike to have a dog not bark on track, as for quit dog treeing more coon that should be the objective

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Lots of talk about babbling dogs, but nothing about track switching dogs. Dog goes out 50 yards and runs a screaming track. Dog ends up 1 to 2 miles away and is sitting under a kitten coon. The owner will say " most of the time the dog is deep and alone. Has a really cold nose." I Have run to more of these dogs then babblers around here.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Hennessey
Lots of talk about babbling dogs, but nothing about track switching dogs. Dog goes out 50 yards and runs a screaming track. Dog ends up 1 to 2 miles away and is sitting under a kitten coon. The owner will say " most of the time the dog is deep and alone. Has a really cold nose." I Have run to more of these dogs then babblers around here.

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__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Well Mr John Smith, If nothing else you have certainly given us something to write about. This subject (my friend) always stirs up controversy, LOL. Thanks for giving us something to think about.

John D, I appreciate your commitment to your belief, but once again I find myself disagreeing with your previous statement (I have my doubts that the guys that wrote the original rules excluded the silent dog because they felt they had some sort of advantage over an open mouthed dog.)

If you truly feel that way then please explain to me your opinion of why they included the language of 6e in the original rules?? What would be the purpose of this language except to drive home the point that it is a fault (in their eyes) to have a dog that keeps its mouth shut on track.

I'm curious as to what your opinion is, as to why that particular language was included in the original rules as I know them???

Thanks John, Look forward to hearing your point of view.

__________________
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Dave, best information i can find on the interweb, the comp. hunts started in 48, first few years there was no point system, the judge simply awarded the win to the dog that treed the most coon. The first set of rules was written by a guy named Robert Graves in 1950 and were used the following year for the world hunt, I couldnt find a copy of those rules but i suspect since most of those dogs were foxhounds that were to slow to stay in the race that it was taken for granted that they would all be open trailers. So it makes sense that the idea was to award points to the first dog to find a track and the first dog to get treed. Those first hunts in the 50s were 4 hours long, today they are 2 and just as the rules have evolved through the years so have the dogs.
Even if you buy into the idea that a tight mouth or silent dog surprises the coon by sneakin up on em(which i dont),I doubt those old boys back then gave to much thought to the concept of fair chase or the idea that the coon didnt know those guys and their dogs were in the woods until the dogs started barkin.
Fast forward to today, the idea that the first dog to open was the first to find a coon track no longer holds true so the idea of adjusting the scoreing system to get back to the idea of rewarding the dog that trees the coon vseems logical.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

I believe the 6e rule was included in the night hunt rule is because when the breed standards were written they included reference to dogs to be open trailers some mentioned bawl or bugle when trailing with noticeable change at tree.
So if the breed standards were followed coonhound to coonhound (forget hound breed) and because of Genetic traits how do you get silent hounds without introducing outside genetic traits into the gene pool? Maybe this is what the original breeders and rule makers were trying to do to keep our coonhounds pure. JMO.