UKC Forums - breeding question

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-- breeding question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928428578)

Posted by Treedoggmafia on 09-11-2015 03:26 PM:

I don't care the reason or situation or exuse,a dog should NEVER leave a tree once he looks up,right wrong or otherwise!

Posted by hat creek mac on 09-11-2015 03:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Treedoggmafia
I don't care the reason or situation or exuse,a dog should NEVER leave a tree once he looks up,right wrong or otherwise!

I agree. Once they commit, they need to stay.

Posted by J. Lovell on 09-11-2015 04:43 PM:

A guy sure needs to hunt with a dog some before he buys a pup or breeds a gyp to that sucker on what o'Joe Blow the owner tells you about his dog. I see where some people say "Well his winning record speaks for itself." Well that don't mean crap to me. If I've been with the dog and handler and I've seen some of their cheating ways first hand, then I have my doubts about every win they get from then on. Always best to see and hear the dog in action with your own eyes and ears. And my answer is "I would not knowingly breed to a dog that left his tree every time another dog barked."

__________________
Blueticks that I've started and hunted over the years:

Nt. Ch. Lovell's Coon Catching Blue Sally
Nt. Ch. Home Brew Blue Josie (Out of Gary Uchtman's Jobe and Sarah which is a Thorn female)
Gr. Nt. TP's Dizzy Dot (Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Razor Ridge Pop-A-Top)
Gr. Nt. Ch. Lovell's Smokey River Blue Ann (Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Coonbranch Blue Bandit)
Nt. Ch. Lovell's Smokey River Daisy (Ch. Gr. Nt. Ch. Twin Springs Blazin Bull)
Nt. Ch. Lovell's Smoken Blue Molly (Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Dillion's Smoken Blue Magic)
Gr. Nt. Lovell's Smokey River Snap (Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Jennings Blue Top Hank)
Gr. Nt. Smokey River Blue Molly (Gr. Nt. Ch. Nixon's Wolf Creek Geronimo)
Gr. Nt. Smokey River Blue Wahoo (Gr. Nt. Ch. Nixon's Wolf Creek Geronimo)
Gr. Nt. Davis White River Sugar (Nt. Ch. Smokey River JBs Chief)
Nt. Ch. Lovell's Katy Bar the Door (Gr. Nt. Ch. Nixon's Wolf Creek Geronimo)
Gr. Nt. Sky's Blue Bumble Bee (Gr. Nt. Ch. Northern Blue Jet 5)
Nt. Ch. Lovell's Coon Catchin' Katie (Nt. Ch. Bowden's Wolf Creek Smokey)
Gr. Nt. Washburn Valley Blue Drip ( Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Uchtman's So. Blue Hornet)
Gr. Nt. Stewart's Natural Okie Reb (Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Natural Smokey River Rebel)
Nt. Ch. Coon Catchin' Jim (Gr. Nt. Ch. Gr. Ch. Clear River Diamond Jim)

Jeff Lovell (918) 839-3066

Posted by hat creek mac on 09-11-2015 05:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by J. Lovell
A guy sure needs to hunt with a dog some before he buys a pup or breeds a gyp to that sucker on what o'Joe Blow the owner tells you about his dog. I see where some people say "Well his winning record speaks for itself." Well that don't mean crap to me. If I've been with the dog and handler and I've seen some of their cheating ways first hand, then I have my doubts about every win they get from then on. Always best to see and hear the dog in action with your own eyes and ears. And my answer is "I would not knowingly breed to a dog that left his tree every time another dog barked."

You hit the nail dead on the head with that post.

The majority of coonhunters believe what they read in a magazine. They think if a dog wins, that it is the kind you want and need. Many of these wins come from crooked handlers or dishonest dogs (strike stealers, mean dogs that run everything off of trees, the list goes on and on). The average Joe is just a hunter that is relying on people to tell the truth about their dogs, and this is sadly not the case most of the time.

Take a look at what is happening in the Walker breed. They have bred mouthy dogs that won up to a point that it is common to see these that start barking right out of your light and NEVER shut up. The GREAT breeders that breed for personal likes and not a dollar won't fall for the flavor of the month. The average walker guy is breeding to what is HOT at the moment or what is winning. Makes no difference if they are dishonest or not. They are breeding a bunch of idiots that don't have enough sense to shut their head when no track is there. Not only that, but the younger guys are very proud of the fact that they are hunting strike stealers that never shut up. I have had several tell me that they didn't care how they won, but just that they won. What happened to pride and style? Somehow and somewhere, pride in the way you win and leading a hound that had style have just been thrown to the wayside.

I would hope that most of the guys reading this are more intelligent than that.

If a dog won't stay treed under pressure, and his sire wouldn't stay treed under pressure, do you think his pups are going to stay treed under pressure?

MOST LIKELY NOT

Posted by Ron Moore on 09-11-2015 05:53 PM:

Pulling??

I always looked at it this way. A pedigree is just a bunch of links that make up a chain. You may have a weak link 3 or 4 generations back that will crop up from time to time, saw it happen more than once. So, if you knowingly breed a dog or to a dog with unwanted qualities don't expect anything more from the pups. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Going along with Hat Creek Mac, I have seen some things in some of the bigger hunts that will make you down right sick. There are truly many deserving dogs winning but some (with titles) shouldn't even be there, but that's how the system is set up. We just play the system offered to us. Hunt with the dogs or know a reputable person when considering as stud/dam/or pup.

Posted by Tom Jones on 09-11-2015 07:44 PM:

how about you guys doing the recent winning, what are your thoughts on this? its been some time since I have entered a hunt. can you really win with these mee tooing hounds that wont hold pressure?

__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

Posted by Vic Stoll on 09-11-2015 09:48 PM:

When this thread was started, I was sure the roots of it were based from sarcasm & it was pretty much more of a joke than a serious thing. I did not expect for it to evolve into what it has. I am surprised at some of the dialog that is being shared. I thought the days of a high percentage of dogs that wouldn't hold pressure were pretty much behind, & now days, a dog that would not hold pressure was pretty much in the minority. I guess I am out in left field again

From my little corner of the world, the few hunts I have attended as of late have been elimination style, with the $HKC variety making up the majority of them. In these hunts, if you don't have a hound that will hold pressure, you are wasting money & spitting in the wind if you think you can consistently win a cast. You must have a hound that will be by itself more often than not, it must have an above average mouth, it must be a very accurate one bark locator, MUST STAY PUT, & must be QUICK about what it does. It also MUST GO HARD OFF A RECAST & get its own thing, it cannot cover another hound treed off a recast or you won't be racking any points & will fall behind fast. All of the casts I have been on hunted the same spot for the duration of the hunt. It was rare to have multiple dogs on a tree, & after the first dump, you were recasting & striking back in for a quarter the rest of the night, so having a coon to look at when a hound gets treed is essential.

Holding pressure has not been an area lacking in the hounds that have made up these casts. From what I have witnessed, accuracy has been the main area in which more dogs may be a little short. Also, going hard off the recast is another area in which some (minority) of the dogs were short. The caliber of hounds drawn in these casts has been the best I have ever been a part of. More often than not, the winner is decided in the last minutes of the hunt. For around my area, if you want to check the oil on what is on the end of your lead strap, these are the hunts which will allow you to do so. If you were feeling good about what you were hunting, after one of these casts a person will remember what the taste of that humble pie is like

hat creek, Jeff, & Ron ... I am in full agreement with the seeing is believing theory. There is no better substitute!

__________________
Home of:
A couple blue haired potlickers

Gone but not forgotten:
Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

Posted by hat creek mac on 09-12-2015 12:56 AM:

Years ago, I had my eyes opened as to the difference in the style of dogs being campaigned from one KC to the next. Sure there are those that overlap, but what you see common in one KC is very rare in another.

How do you explain that there are two hunts with different kennel clubs just down the road from each other and a vast difference in scores?

One set hunts more independent dogs that bust up and you spend more time scoring solo dogs. The other set hunts more of a pack type dog that you can keep dumping and treeing together and moving. I am not saying one is better than the other, that is just the way it is.

I'm not bragging, but I consider myself to be a fairly good handler. Give me a dog that gets open quick and backs everything that makes a tree and I will win way more than I lose. Would I be proud of these wins....not hardly....but it can and has been done.

Posted by Surveyor on 09-12-2015 01:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Vic Stoll
When this thread was started, I was sure the roots of it were based from sarcasm & it was pretty much more of a joke than a serious thing. I did not expect for it to evolve into what it has. I am surprised at some of the dialog that is being shared. I thought the days of a high percentage of dogs that wouldn't hold pressure were pretty much behind, & now days, a dog that would not hold pressure was pretty much in the minority. I guess I am out in left field again

From my little corner of the world, the few hunts I have attended as of late have been elimination style, with the $HKC variety making up the majority of them. In these hunts, if you don't have a hound that will hold pressure, you are wasting money & spitting in the wind if you think you can consistently win a cast. You must have a hound that will be by itself more often than not, it must have an above average mouth, it must be a very accurate one bark locator, MUST STAY PUT, & must be QUICK about what it does. It also MUST GO HARD OFF A RECAST & get its own thing, it cannot cover another hound treed off a recast or you won't be racking any points & will fall behind fast. All of the casts I have been on hunted the same spot for the duration of the hunt. It was rare to have multiple dogs on a tree, & after the first dump, you were recasting & striking back in for a quarter the rest of the night, so having a coon to look at when a hound gets treed is essential.

Holding pressure has not been an area lacking in the hounds that have made up these casts. From what I have witnessed, accuracy has been the main area in which more dogs may be a little short. Also, going hard off the recast is another area in which some (minority) of the dogs were short. The caliber of hounds drawn in these casts has been the best I have ever been a part of. More often than not, the winner is decided in the last minutes of the hunt. For around my area, if you want to check the oil on what is on the end of your lead strap, these are the hunts which will allow you to do so. If you were feeling good about what you were hunting, after one of these casts a person will remember what the taste of that humble pie is like

hat creek, Jeff, & Ron ... I am in full agreement with the seeing is believing theory. There is no better substitute!

This is so true and why I get bent out of shape from time to time when I read posts on here and face book, by people that believe there are lots of titled dogs that can't tree their own coon-get off the computer and in the hunts and you will see exactly what Vic writes about-dogs split treeing their own coon all over the place! Now to the original question, no I won't breed a female that won't stay treed and I mean stay treed through all kinds of pressure. But I did once years ago, so I guess I have to say everybody is entitled to a mistake before they learn. Had a little track driving female that just wouldn't stay hooked, but she had a litter mate brother that was a super tree dog, so we bred her and we got track driving pups that wouldn't stay hooked! The tree in dogs has came a long way since then though and yes in some cases it has come too far! But to breed a female that is not a solid get treed stay treed cooner in this age where there is little market for pups and solid dogs not being bred just due to that fact, is not excusable, but it certainly is being done. I had a guy contact me a few years back with a "great" deal. He wanted me to take this female, raise a litter of pups off her and Piazon, then keep her and just send him back a pair of pups. He went on and on about her pedigree. When I finally got a chance to talk I asked him what she was like in the woods and he said well I never could get her to tree a coon but with a pedigree like hers I'm sure she will reproduce! I told him sorry I wasn't interested in breeding females that don't tree coon and he said he would find someone who appreciated her pedigree and sure enough a few months later I saw a post on here for a litter of pups from this female and a stud owned by a stud owner I won't name, so sure enough it wasn't hard for him to find someone to take his deal and sure enough this mentality is why we don't have more advancement in this breed in my opinion.

__________________
Mike Sheppard
Sheppard's Northern Blue's
Home of UKC GR NT CH, PKC CH
2 time world finalist, 10th overall and high scoring Bluetick of the 2010 UKC World Coonhound Championship
NASHOBA VALLEY PIAZON, (RIP)
his littermate brother
UKC NT CH SHEPPARDS NORTHERN
BLUE LONER (RIP)
UKC GR NT CH RATTLERS BLUE SKY (RIP)
UKC Gr NT CH, PKC Ch Sheppard's Northern Blue Abbie, (PiazonxSky) UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Sheppards Northern Blue Punkin (PiazonXAlice) High scoring Bluetick of the 2015 (50th anniversary) Grand American, 2017 National Grand Nite Champion of breed, 2017 BBOA zone 4 Nite hunt dog of the year. Queen of hunt on 2019 Grand National Bluetick Reunion, 5th place and High Scoring Bluetick of 2019 UKC world Nite hunt Championship, 2019 Triple Crown Winner.
UKC GR NT CH 'pr' Mckintosh's Blue Flame Chopper
Gr Nt Ch Sheppards Northern Blue Goomba (Piazon X Dizzie) 14th place 2017 UKC world coon hound championship 100 purina point cast wins in 2018
and several other blueticks of lesser accomplishments

Posted by Ron Jackson on 09-12-2015 02:24 PM:

In the crosses that I personally have access to, I see a lot of independence and pressure holding tree dogs. The good or bad part of that is I am limited to certain dogs. The crosses of Piazon, Echo Joe and Gauge onto the Alice female have all produced this kind of dog in the vast majority of the pups out of each litter. A good female is needed every bit as much as a good male. Do they all make good comp hounds? Probably not but if they were in the right hands I am sure more would get the chance.

Posted by Danny Glista on 09-13-2015 01:45 AM:

Ron

You and I know what comes from my kennel!! You by posting Alice and her offspring just killed this thread! Most are jelous of what one has going on!! Later,Danny G.

PS: Just have to find the right sire for her next litter is all!!

__________________
Danny G

Posted by BIG$BLUES on 09-13-2015 02:49 AM:

Re: Ron

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Glista
You and I know what comes from my kennel!! You by posting Alice and her offspring just killed this thread! Most are jelous of what one has going on!! Later,Danny G.
.

I don't figure Alice and her offspring will stop this thread Danny!! I hope you raise one out of her some day that is everything your looking for.

__________________
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NTCH DUVALL'S BIG MONEY SLIDDER

Home of those with drive!
Speak the truth it will set you free.

Posted by Treedoggmafia on 09-14-2015 01:54 AM:

Looking threw the reproducers list looks the only common denominator is treeslammin hillbilly with 4 females on the current reproducers list!

Posted by hat creek mac on 09-14-2015 01:39 PM:

Re: Ron

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Glista
Most are jelous of what one has going on!!

PS: Just have to find the right sire for her next litter is all!!

Been doing some thinking on this

Since Alice and JV were both from Wonderland, there is only one stud deserving enough to sire her next litter

BAM tree ol Charlie Manson in there deep

Posted by gcblues on 09-14-2015 05:27 PM:

breeding

Does Alice stay treed ?

Posted by breezyoaks on 09-14-2015 05:32 PM:

Alice

Danny.
Did ya breed that reproducibility into Alice or did ya train it into her....lol.

__________________
"Breezy Oaks blueticks"
Home of the ROCK dog

Patrick Barrett

Posted by gcblues on 09-14-2015 05:46 PM:

breed

If you can breed a dud to her and get good results can Id like to breed my male . He's a likeable dog he just don't hunt good , Just having some fun with you Dan

Posted by coonbone on 09-14-2015 05:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Treedoggmafia
Looking threw the reproducers list looks the only common denominator is treeslammin hillbilly with 4 females on the current reproducers list!

Is there a common denominator of what line of dogs these females were bred to that helped put them on the reproducers list?

Posted by Danny Glista on 09-14-2015 06:13 PM:

Alice is due to be bred soon!!

Tues. or Wends. of next week. Here's what I'm looking to gain! Throw dirt in your face go hunting type stud that throws that in his pups would be first concern. 2nd,has to be able to move an old bad track the right way if there's one out there!!3rd,has to throw pups with good mouths that carries a track and opens to how old the track is. I'm not worried about being a real treedog,Alice puts the word TREE in the word treedog herself. If you owned her,what would be your choice,I have mine! Just currious is all!!This will be interesting and waiting for responces from all!!!!!! She been bred to 3 different studs with real good results! Soon to go to the top on current reproduction list in UKC!! Name your choice and why!! She's also real independant and will stay hooked under any conditions off course or she wouldn't be here!!Thanks,Danny G.

__________________
Danny G

Posted by Treedoggmafia on 09-14-2015 06:15 PM:

3 are out of traslammin lady and 1 out of posie

Posted by Treedoggmafia on 09-14-2015 06:18 PM:

Lost creeks treeslammin hoss is what your looking for also I've seen North Star blue Oakley do exactly what your looking for! Both have and are bred for mouth and kick dirt in your face,both know the right way to RUN a track and also throw there heads up when needed!

Posted by hat creek mac on 09-14-2015 06:44 PM:

Re: Alice is due to be bred soon!!

quote:
Originally posted by Danny Glista
If you owned her,what would be your choice,I have mine!

CHARLIE MANSON!

He is the ONLY choice. Never been one that hunted any harder. His pups are absolutely natural and not shy in any way. They will hunt for anyone! Not a queer streak in any of his pups that I have seen so far.

Posted by rance56 on 09-14-2015 07:40 PM:

Re: Re: Alice is due to be bred soon!!

quote:
Originally posted by hat creek mac
CHARLIE MANSON!

He is the ONLY choice. Never been one that hunted any harder. His pups are absolutely natural and not shy in any way. They will hunt for anyone! Not a queer streak in any of his pups that I have seen so far.

but do his pups at 4 years old start to bog down on cold tracks?

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by rance56 on 09-14-2015 07:40 PM:

Re: Re: Alice is due to be bred soon!!

quote:
Originally posted by hat creek mac
CHARLIE MANSON!

He is the ONLY choice. Never been one that hunted any harder. His pups are absolutely natural and not shy in any way. They will hunt for anyone! Not a queer streak in any of his pups that I have seen so far.

but do his pups at 4 years old start to bog down on cold tracks?

__________________
the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

Posted by Vic Stoll on 09-14-2015 07:43 PM:

Re: Re: Alice is due to be bred soon!!

quote:
Originally posted by hat creek mac
CHARLIE MANSON!

He is the ONLY choice. Never been one that hunted any harder. His pups are absolutely natural and not shy in any way. They will hunt for anyone! Not a queer streak in any of his pups that I have seen so far.

Here you go Danny! JV & the rabbit are waiting, the only missing piece is ole Alice! Once you arrive at the Manson dojo, you will need to be sure to sip the proper kool aid, don't want the one that makes you 10 feet tall if the entry door is only knee high! That is where JV's key contribution will come in to play

Best of luck with whatever stud you decide on. I know you are still looking for that "one" that is the proverbial needle in the haystack.

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