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-- Scratch for handling dog during hunt. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928426792)

Several could apply...6I, 6L, even 6T. The dog has to hunt the full 2 hours. A leash is definitely a device to control a dog. The dog is being "discouraged" when he is leashed or if the dog actually listens to his handler and was verbally told to stop or called back in to avoid the road. His masters {handlers} words can be as controlling or discouraging as a leash if he was so trained. The bottom line is that a handler cannot control, encourage or discourage a dog when the clock is running.

The rule I have never found yet is the one that says you have to have the judges permission to "handle" dogs at the tree...all it says is "dogs at tree must be leashed."

Doesn't matter to me if there is a rule for it or not. If my dog is getting on a hwy, I will catch him if I can. Might be $20.00 down the drain, but I WILL try my best to catch my dog. No matter what anybody in the cast has to say. Last year I was a spectator on a cast, will I actually just stayed at the truck. The Dogs had gone very deep, so I drove around to the other HWY. Cars flying up and down this road, and here comes the dogs. When they got to the road, they lost the track and was running up and down the road. I caught two of the three, and another guy caught the other. These dogs would have been killed, if we didn’t catch them. Right or wrong I did what I had to do.

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Originally posted by msinc

The rule I have never found yet is the one that says you have to have the judges permission to "handle" dogs at the tree...all it says is "dogs at tree must be leashed."

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[i]Originally posted by msinc

The rule I have never found yet is the one that says you have to have the judges permission to "handle" dogs at the tree...all it says is "dogs at tree must be leashed." [/B]

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He didn't elaborate on the road. It could've been an interstate hwy, or it could've been a two path hunting club road. It wasn't stated. Yes you do what you need to do if you have to. Heck I'm liking the question now of...does the judge have to give you permission to leash your dog at the tree? Yes it's always been said, but is in a written rule?

one thing that I have done before is if a man catches his dog with out asking in the woods not on a road, he is MIN his strike points on a road I do not believe anyone should not be allowed to catch there dog and get it off the road.

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There is definitely no rule that says you cannot catch your dog if there is a safety issue...but, if the judge doesn't agree and O.K. it then you have to take minus points. I believe this was left in the hands of the judge because all of a sudden "there's a road right through those woods" when the track starts going bad. I have witnessed this and I also know that placing it in the judges hands does not necessarily prevent it from happening.
I can't imagine any judge not allowing dogs to be picked up or "handled" if there really is any evidence at all of an issue. If highway traffic can be heard or the guide says they are getting close to a road or one of the handlers Garmin's shows a road and the judge gives minus points...I think that speaks to his dog power.

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
I got scratched for it while the judge was standing basically next to me

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since there is no rule that says we can not leash our dogs in a hunt at the tree until a judge tells us to, does that mean we can just walk up and leash them?? I know we have always not done it until the judge told us to BUT what is the right thing to do.

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All the rules say is the judge has to be the first to the tree. so blowin by him to handle your dog is outa the question i think.

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Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
The dog has to compete for the entire 2 hours or it's scratched. How can it be competing when its on the leash?

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On page 63 of my rulebook under hunting judges/clarification...it states that "hunting judge has complete authority". I think that UKC has interpreted this to mean that you must have permission from the judge to handle your dog. And we all know what happens if you don't do what the judge tells/asks you to do.

If you call your dog off a track, is that handling it? If you say yes read page 122 of the second edition of the coonhound advisor.

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Originally posted by Bob Hennessey
If you call your dog off a track, is that handling it? If you say yes read page 122 of the second edition of the coonhound advisor.

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Most people say you put a leash on a dog you are scratched, I called UKC that is not what I was told so I asked If you call your dog off a track is it being handled. If you can call your dog off a track advisor says minus points. There is no place in the rules that say if you leash your dog you're scratched. You cannot use implied scratch as no rule has been broken. I know of many dogs that have been scratched because of being leashed if isn't a scratchable rule it should be clarified to what should happen. I hear more "I got cheated" when a lot of it is both the judges and the handlers don't know the rules. I was always under the impression that Leashing your dog was a scratchable offense until I was asked to show the rule and I can't find it.

I wasn't on this cast and was called a couple of days after the hunt and asked about the dog getting scratched.

We are under a tornado watch here can't hunt. Just posting for something to do.

There are rules and there is procedure, if UKC had to write a rule to cover everything that happens in the woods you would need a truck to haul the rulebook around. Handling a dog or calling it off track without the judges permission is no different that casting your dog before the judge says cut em, its simply part of the system. The rulebook has sections for when dogs are plussed,minused, and circled, beyond that anything you do without the judges permission that falls outside the system is an implied scratch and will get ya sent home. When a dog gets near a road the handler can withdraw and handle his dog or he can request a cast vote to call timeout, but if he just leaves the cast and handles his dog he is scratched. If a handler leashes his dog at a tree before the judge says handle em he is scratched because it is the judges job to be first to the tree because he must judge which dogs are treeing and on which tree.
If you need a rule number to back up these scratches read S and T under handler related scratchable offenses.

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Page 122, 2nd edition advisor reads example: judges are not to let hunters call dogs off trail without counting those points minus. "if it wouldn't have specified," without counting those points minus," then I would be inclined to say that you would be scratched for calling dogs off trail. But the rules are very clear as to what you should in that situation. Rule is now 4e.

I really wish Allen would get in on this one when he gets back Monday mourning because this is one that won't go as "settled" until he does.
I think 4(e) refers to a situation where the judge allows dogs to be called in when they are struck and getting nothing done. The handler(s) agree they would rather take their minus and move on. That falls under 4(e). I think Johns answer above is the correct answer. You can never interfere with a dog unless the judge orders it.

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
If a handler leashes his dog at a tree before the judge says handle em he is scratched because it is the judges job to be first to the tree because he must judge which dogs are treeing and on which tree.

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Originally posted by msinc
Yes and no...this statement, as written, is not correct. If the judge gets to the tree first and my dog is there treed like he is supposed to I do not need, nor should I get scratched for putting a leash on him. I know it happens, but it is not correct. The rules are very clear..."judge must be the first to arrive"...handlers that beat the judge to the tree are scratched. "Dogs must be leashed at the tree", but no {zero} mention regarding after the judge says okay.
Now, if there is an issue, for example the judge thought he might have heard an altercation at the tree he might specify that he wants to go in first and see what if anything is going on. He should let everyone know he is watching how all the dogs act at the tree and tell the cast members not to leash their dogs. In that case I would not press it and let him do his job...the dog he saves from a fight might be mine. If someone goes right in and gets their dog chances are that handler knows exactly what is going on and is acting to prevent his dog from getting written up for fighting. Even if he states he wants to go ahead and scratch the dog...there is a rule that says he cannot scratch his dog to avoid being written up.

Edit: this gets to be a slippery slope...if a dog comes back to meet his handler and the handler leashes his dog BEFORE the judge sees the dog go back on the tree and tree satisfactorily then that dog can get minus tree points for leaving. Bottom line, nowhere does it say you have to have the judges permission, but timing is everything and you might be money ahead to go along with it and just let him play king jerk.

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Guess i just dont understand your point or why you would have a problem with waiting for the judge to give the OK to handle the dogs, do you also think you should be able to cast your dog before told to by the judge? thats not written in the book either, its just hunt procedure. ANYTIME you influence your dogs behavior without instruction from the judge your interfearing with his ability to do his job.

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Originally posted by msinc
I must be doing a bad job of explaining my point...I have no problem with waiting for the judge, that is not the issue. The problem is getting scratched for a rule that don't exist. If the judge asked the cast to wait, then we wait...if he don't ask, is the first one at the tree and I leash my dog that is there and doing what he is supposed to I should not be scratched. But, there are a great many handlers that believe this is so. In spite of the cold hard fact that there is no rule to support it. I get the implied thing, but this rules and procedures....if there is no rule then you make up a "procedure"????
Just like the vast majority of handlers that in spite of the clear written rules they believe in the procedure that they can just call time out whenever it suits them. My other favorite, the procedure of keeping a dog on a leash with 15 minutes of hunt time left while walking to the trucks...when there is a clear, written rule that says very simply you must hunt the full two hours.
Don't get me wrong...I like what all these procedures could do for me in a hunt, but that don't make them right.

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What happens if a judge tells you to handle your dog but you don't? Say you are shining a tree and your dog that is struck in comes into it and the judge tells you to handle him. You don't handle him but just stand around and he eventually leaves and goes on hunting. Are you scratched or is this acceptable? Is there a rule for this? (Other than the one that says judge has complete authority)

Well yeah, there is a rule that says all dogs at tree must be handled.

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PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.