UKC Forums - Hawk,or Chief?

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Posted by coonbone on 06-25-2015 03:53 AM:

Does anyone know which one threw the most drive in there pups? I don't mean jealous drive.Like want to race to the end of the mile.I mean like block out the other dogs,and find a coon as quick as possible.

Posted by coonbone on 06-25-2015 03:58 AM:

Re: Pups

quote:
Originally posted by david woofter
Heck I will just take one out of both dogs. Both dogs made their mark in my opinion. Dave Woofter ( Bristol Ridge Kennels ) P.S. I am hunting one out of Zeb and two out of Jobe so I like the Uchtman bred Hounds. The reason I bred my Lou female to Ranger is he has both dogs in his Ped. Good luck with your hounds.

How can i find out more about Ranger?

Posted by blueticker on 06-25-2015 04:30 AM:

Bred two different gyps to Hawk. I didn't get a top hound from either cross. Had a Nt ch from one litter that would go country on you and tree a racoon. Alone the dog would go miles to get treed. Cut him alone in January, 12 degrees, moonlight, no tracker in the 80 s. Never heard a bark but he returned 4 hrs later. We had drove miles to listen.

Chief's Joe was very similar in going hunting. Just a better coon hound. Joe was a better treedog with a better mouth.

Hawk was a top coon catcher.

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Gr. Nt. Ch. Natural Smokey River Lucy (Chief's Joe X Muggins)
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Posted by John Carroll on 06-25-2015 01:36 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by coonbone
Does anyone know which one threw the most drive in there pups? I don't mean jealous drive.Like want to race to the end of the mile.I mean like block out the other dogs,and find a coon as quick as possible.

You will get different opinions.

I'd give the nod to the Hawk dogs for drive and go.

Most of the Chief bred dogs I hunted with were smart hunting, heads up tree dogs that went hunting to find a tree with a coon in it.

The Hawk dogs in my experience were dogs that went hunting looking for a coon to run.

Others will disagree.

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Posted by John Carroll on 06-25-2015 01:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blueticker
Bred two different gyps to Hawk. I didn't get a top hound from either cross. Had a Nt ch from one litter that would go country on you and tree a racoon. Alone the dog would go miles to get treed. Cut him alone in January, 12 degrees, moonlight, no tracker in the 80 s. Never heard a bark but he returned 4 hrs later. We had drove miles to listen.

Chief's Joe was very similar in going hunting. Just a better coon hound. Joe was a better treedog with a better mouth.

Hawk was a top coon catcher.

I sure liked a pup out of your old Joe that I had.

That sucker woke me up at 2:00 AM one morning with a coon treed up corner post west of the house when he was less than five months old.

He was a natural coon treer.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 06-25-2015 02:11 PM:

chief was a good looking hound also.

It would be personal preference of traits imo, couldn't go wrong with either. only thing I cant agree with from previous post is giving hawk the nod on drifting a track but chief on lay-ups? chief dogs where track drifting machines regardless of what you hear about him. I would say they wear equal in the treeing dept. but chief dogs where faster to locate as a whole and I would say chief threw MORE of the elite type of dogs then hawk but that is just an assumption

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Posted by david woofter on 06-25-2015 05:06 PM:

Ranger

Coonbone this is the man that knows about Ranger. Tim Vaughn 1-660-563-3710. As far as pressure the two females that I have had that would hold the most pressure was a triple bred Hawk in 3 gen. female called Kelly that I could shoot a coon off a tree 10 yards away and she would not leave her tree. Done it many times just showing off to hunters. She produced many Gr.Nt. And Nt.Ch. dogs. The other female you could do that with was a Gr.Nt. out of Old Hussler called Sally; She was Hammer and Smokey River Bred. Dave

Posted by John Carroll on 06-25-2015 06:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones

chief was a good looking hound also.

It would be personal preference of traits imo, couldn't go wrong with either. only thing I cant agree with from previous post is giving hawk the nod on drifting a track but chief on lay-ups? chief dogs where track drifting machines regardless of what you hear about him. I would say they wear equal in the treeing dept. but chief dogs where faster to locate as a whole and I would say chief threw MORE of the elite type of dogs then hawk but that is just an assumption

That's what I mean by different views.

I know you know hounds.

It just depends on which hounds a man hunted with and how they performed when we saw them.

I am not immune to bias either.

Fair enough to say they both helped the breed.

Chief probably did sire more high profile sons.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 06-25-2015 10:43 PM:

Very enjoyable & interesting read

Tom Jones & John Carroll, I love the type of input you guys are sharing! Your input is about dogs that are now dead & gone, but honest to goodness input based on FIRST HAND experience, regardless of positive or negative perception.

In my opinion, this sort of discussion is sadly lacking with today's hounds. I would love to see this same kind of input regarding some of today's hounds, & different crosses made with them. Tell the good & the bad, the more successful crosses, less successful crosses, tendencies, etc. Unfortunately, I doubt this will ever happen. I guess a man is best off trying to expose himself to as many experiences with as many different hounds/strains as possible, then make his own determination.

These are just some ramblings from a fat old bald headed Southwest Ohio woodlot coonhunter .... which ain't much in the big picture!

Carry on!

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Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!

Posted by Tom Jones on 06-26-2015 07:55 PM:

Re: Very enjoyable & interesting read

quote:
Originally posted by Vic Stoll
Tom Jones & John Carroll, I love the type of input you guys are sharing! Your input is about dogs that are now dead & gone, but honest to goodness input based on FIRST HAND experience, regardless of positive or negative perception.

In my opinion, this sort of discussion is sadly lacking with today's hounds. I would love to see this same kind of input regarding some of today's hounds, & different crosses made with them. Tell the good & the bad, the more successful crosses, less successful crosses, tendencies, etc. Unfortunately, I doubt this will ever happen. I guess a man is best off trying to expose himself to as many experiences with as many different hounds/strains as possible, then make his own determination.

These are just some ramblings from a fat old bald headed Southwest Ohio woodlot coonhunter .... which ain't much in the big picture!

Carry on!

Stoll, you reckon between hawk n chiefs 1600+ combined pups that any of em wear 80-85% accurate lol jus kiddin ole buddy

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Posted by John Carroll on 06-26-2015 08:53 PM:

Let me tell you one reason why Hawk and Chief made their mark...

Coon hunters who had good Blue bitches jumped them up in the back of the truck when they came in heat and unloaded them at Lonnie's and Warren's.

If you would remove the offspring of three or four females each from their numbers, neither one of them would have quite as good a percentage.

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Posted by Tom Jones on 06-26-2015 09:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John Carroll
Let me tell you one reason why Hawk and Chief made their mark...

Coon hunters who had good Blue bitches jumped them up in the back of the truck when they came in heat and unloaded them at Lonnie's and Warren's.

If you would remove the offspring of three or four females each from their numbers, neither one of them would have quite as good a percentage.

bingo

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Posted by G. JEFFERS on 06-27-2015 01:30 PM:

John

U couldn't have said it better. Most of us want to run just down the road and breed to a local dog that's free and easy and hope for the best.

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And always looking for a better one

Posted by southernthunder on 06-27-2015 01:42 PM:

Re: John

quote:
Originally posted by G. JEFFERS
U couldn't have said it better. Most of us want to run just down the road and breed to a local dog that's free and easy and hope for the best.

Absolutely! Breed winners to winners.

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Posted by recon on 06-27-2015 03:46 PM:

Re: Re: John

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
Absolutely! Breed winners to winners.

From my understanding, Chiefs winning ability was in no way related to his reproducing ability. If it was, he would not have been much of a reproducer.

Funny thing about breeding winners though. If you haven't personally observed how those wins came, I would be cautious in using that as a deciding factor in determining breeding.

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Posted by coonbone on 06-27-2015 11:26 PM:

Re: Re: Re: John

quote:
Originally posted by recon
From my understanding, Chiefs winning ability was in no way related to his reproducing ability. If it was, he would not have been much of a reproducer.

Funny thing about breeding winners though. If you haven't personally observed how those wins came, I would be cautious in using that as a deciding factor in determining breeding.

The deciding factor for me is there pups,out of different sires,or dams.

Posted by recon on 06-28-2015 12:47 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: John

quote:
Originally posted by coonbone
The deciding factor for me is there pups,out of different sires,or dams.

That was my point. A dogs inability to win, or its ability to win, may not be any type of accurate reflection of how it will reproduce. Chief helps prove that.

Some of those "winners" are lesser coondogs than the ones that aren't winners. So to me the "winner to winner" cliche' is not very reliable.

A dogs pups out of different females would be the best way. If that's not an option breed like traits to like traits.

I know this is getting off the point of this thread, so moving on........

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Posted by calblu on 06-28-2015 11:47 PM:

So if Chief wasn't so outstanding in the woods, what was it that made people want to breed to him regardless? Did Warren breed several females to him initially to help establish his reputation as a dominant reproducer?

I know in looking up the pedigrees I've been able to find over the past several years of the blue dogs that have gone on to the World hunt, most of them have shown Chief at least twice in 4 generations.

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Posted by coonbone on 06-29-2015 12:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by calblu
So if Chief wasn't so outstanding in the woods, what was it that made people want to breed to him regardless? Did Warren breed several females to him initially to help establish his reputation as a dominant reproducer?

I know in looking up the pedigrees I've been able to find over the past several years of the blue dogs that have gone on to the World hunt, most of them have shown Chief at least twice in 4 generations.

That's very interesting,Chief being in the pedigree of the big winners.I figured Jet V was probably in most of there pedigrees also.Any other common denominators,in the dogs that went to the world hunt?

Posted by John Carroll on 06-29-2015 02:23 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by calblu
So if Chief wasn't so outstanding in the woods, what was it that made people want to breed to him regardless? Did Warren breed several females to him initially to help establish his reputation as a dominant reproducer?

I know in looking up the pedigrees I've been able to find over the past several years of the blue dogs that have gone on to the World hunt, most of them have shown Chief at least twice in 4 generations.

One reason he was bred to was that he was advertised by one of the all time great promoters of the Bluetick breed.

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Posted by Misty river on 06-29-2015 02:35 AM:

Smokey River JBS Cheif

Warren told me That the first female bred to Cheif was a grade female and when the pups started treeing coons at an early age, he thought he had better take a closer look at Cheifs reproducing abilities and from there the history of a great reproducer began.---------Jack

Posted by Tom Jones on 06-29-2015 04:05 PM:

chief sired his first registered litter at right around 12-13 months old I believe. he sired a dog whom at the age of 2 finished 2nd in the world hunt and a sis to him was high scoring blue female the next year (s.r. hoss and Jazz). Im sure that all the stories on chief being a below average dog was right but I cant buy all the stories. First off, there are very many pics of Warren hunting the dog up until 8-10 years old............now he had a kennel of nice hounds but he still enjoyed hunting old chief for some reason? next, people always say he was just a nitech and warren pushed dogs in the hunts (see above about siring a 2nd place over all dog when chief was only 3) and folks saying chief took 17 hunts to finish to nitech? probably true as he also had over 400 points and 9-11 cast wins in a row (been awhile since joe rember said this so cant remember exactly how many wins in a row). So he did win a lot more cast then he lost. Not gonna say he was a great dog but lets not say he was a cull as far as coondogs go (and nobody has).

this is just fyi

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Posted by southernthunder on 06-29-2015 04:15 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Jones
chief sired his first registered litter at right around 12-13 months old I believe. he sired a dog whom at the age of 2 finished 2nd in the world hunt and a sis to him was high scoring blue female the next year (s.r. hoss and Jazz). Im sure that all the stories on chief being a below average dog was right but I cant buy all the stories. First off, there are very many pics of Warren hunting the dog up until 8-10 years old............now he had a kennel of nice hounds but he still enjoyed hunting old chief for some reason? next, people always say he was just a nitech and warren pushed dogs in the hunts (see above about siring a 2nd place over all dog when chief was only 3) and folks saying chief took 17 hunts to finish to nitech? probably true as he also had over 400 points and 9-11 cast wins in a row (been awhile since joe rember said this so cant remember exactly how many wins in a row). So he did win a lot more cast then he lost. Not gonna say he was a great dog but lets not say he was a cull as far as coondogs go (and nobody has).

this is just fyi

rather have a consistent cast winner than a 1 hit wonder! there were more dogs in the hunts back then too which made it hard to get that 1st place win. I've heard all the stories too but always wondered why anyone would breed a dog that they didn't like

the only thing we all know for sure is that he was a good reproducer that made his mark on the breed.

Posted by Gary Roberson on 06-29-2015 10:29 PM:

I never hunted with either hound but everything I am hunting and breeding has a lot of Chief in their pedigrees and sure like them. Of course there is a lot of Upson's Blue Boy II and Cl. River Diamond Jim in them as well.
I owned an own son of Chief that was too "coon crazy".
Adios,
Gary

Posted by coonbone on 06-30-2015 03:43 PM:

Re: Ranger

quote:
Originally posted by david woofter
Coonbone this is the man that knows about Ranger. Tim Vaughn 1-660-563-3710. As far as pressure the two females that I have had that would hold the most pressure was a triple bred Hawk in 3 gen. female called Kelly that I could shoot a coon off a tree 10 yards away and she would not leave her tree. Done it many times just showing off to hunters. She produced many Gr.Nt. And Nt.Ch. dogs. The other female you could do that with was a Gr.Nt. out of Old Hussler called Sally; She was Hammer and Smokey River Bred. Dave

I was reading this thread,trying to make sense of it,and didn't read this post well enough the first time.The subject of pressure tree dogs hasn't been addressed enough.Which would get the nod for producing pressure tree dogs?

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