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-- 13 hr ride home from Michigan so have a question about the 1 min rule (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928419704)

Re: 13 hr ride home from Michigan so have a question about the 1 min rule

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Originally posted by MARSHALL AYERS
What is the rule for striking in the minute. Not looking for a opinion. Actually want the rule itself..... Some say the dog has to tree close some say the dog can't take the track 900 yards. Some say minus if the dog shuts up for 30 seconds. I'd just like to see the actual rule.

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Originally posted by JiM
A dog is ruled to be babbling when the judge or a majority of the cast says it is babbling. Simple as that.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

It's a judges decision until questioned at which point it becomes a cast vote.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Jim - I understand and agree, but I'm not sure how a cast could over-turn a "judgment" call.

This would be the case with almost all babbling situations, so perhaps Allen could chime in on this one, too.

Allen - the judge has the "authority" to use their "discretion", and so although I can see the cast voting and over-ruling when a judge makes an error, like inappropriately interpreting the rules, but can the cast vote and potentially over-turn "judgement" calls. I could see where less experienced hunters would see babbling, quitting a track, leaving a tree etc. differently than an experienced judge. But assuming we chose the judge, for their knowledge, experience and discretion, and therefore ability to cast judgement, do we really want to give the rest of the cast this authority???

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

A Majority of the cast can overturn any call a judge makes, judgement call or otherwise.
And anytime the judge has a dog competing in that cast, I definately want the ability to overturn that judge on anything.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Well they need to make some rules about babbling hounds cause it is outta control.Yeah these auto strike dogs can be beat but it just makes a comp hunt unenjoyable to me.Weird part is grown men are proud to get 1st strike knowing there dog ant running a coon.

Then the judge really has no authority than what is given to him or her by their cast. UKC was pretty clear on the judges authority and what was their discretion, in the past, and then much of that language disappeared in the latest rule book, which is why I'm asking Allen's take on the matter. There are specific rules that are defined as "Judge's Decision" where in reality every decision other than a few (tree scoring etc.) are the judge's decision. So why are these specifically called out? Is it because they are a "judgement" decision that shouldn't be open to a cast vote. If so, what other judgment decisions fall into this category?

Again, what is UKC's intent on this type of ruling?

And if I'm judging a bunch of babbling dogs, I'd like to be able to scratch them without them deciding to over-turn every rational decision I make.

Sometimes it's not the judge with the questionable conduct...

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

The rules are suffice as is. Not sure what you are wanting.
I have never understood why three cast members would stand there and allow a babbler to steal points over and over and never put a stop to it which is very simple to do.
"Judge, I want a cast vote on that dog being struck babbling." Three votes to minus, the dog is minused. Why is that so difficult?

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Jim, it's not the judges dog that needs to be minused/scratched, that I have in mind... it's the opposite.

Let's assume that I'm an honest judge with an honest dog, and I happen to draw-out with three buddies. One's dog likes to babble, the other one is real loose on a tree, and one likes to run from one track to another. Do I really have to allow them to vote on every judgement call I make, when I'm trying to give them the minus they deserve??? Because if I'm the outsider, and I'm trying to give them minus, they have the right to challenge it.

And lets say they over-rule one or all of my decisions, but I believe I was right and acting fairly. Can I then put a "?" on the scorecard and take it back to the MOH??? How would they rule??? There's no hard evidence one way or the other... it was a judgement call, and the judge made the call.

This may or may not be an extreme example, but I've been in casts where I was appointed the judge, and one or two guys wanted to question everything. I even asked one of them to take over and they refused... and why would they, it's so much easier badgering the judge, then being one.

To Matt's point... why do they exist? Because someone is not making the judgement call, because they probably figure it will be over-ruled anyway! If the issue was the other way around, I'm sure the other three would be happy to take that first strike away from the judge.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Dave if you are drawing out with 3 guys that are all willing to cheat you need to find different clubs to hunt, as the judge makeing a judgement call it takes every member of the cast to vote to overturn your call. I cant think of a better system to keep things square.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Three cheaters is probably extreme, but what is more likely is three guys that all think we should be lenient with the rules. And so they aren't inclined to enforce what they believe are strict judgments. If I'm strict with you, god-forbid, you'll be strict with me!

I think that's where we find ourselves, and why we have babblers, and the opposite extreme... silent dogs, etc. If folks were enforcing the rules, these problems wouldn't be so prevalent, but they are. And if rules were being enforced by the majority, like Jim's example, then the problem would also be solved, but that's obviously not happening either.

So what I believe is more likely happening is the one person officially responsible for enforcing the rules, the judge, is not doing so because they're tired of being beat down by the majority, or they simply want to be everyone's friend.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

The distinction between the situations that are always voted on and the situations where the judge makes the call is that in the voteing situations the judge is 1/4 of the decision, in the latter it takes the entire cast to overturn the call, its pretty hard to imagine an entire cast voteing to overturn a correct call, im sure it happens but i cant think of a better system on checks and balances.
I think a more common problem are judges that lack either the knowledge or the balls to make the tough calls.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

I imagine your last statement is often the case, but I also imagine those with thinner skin than I, losing their nerve when everything comes up for vote.

And very good point on unanimous versus majority. I think that was Jim's point as well... I just missed it.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Not hard to minus a babble call. Now its dern near impossible to minus a leash to tree dog. Which we have a lot of nowdays. I cant prove they are not after some sort of track. Neither can anybody else.

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Michael Ghorley

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Originally posted by BufordTDawgBrea
Wow! So much disimformation in one post. I sure hope nobody actually believes this guy.

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I'd like for someone that judges to explain to me how they determine a dog is a babbler. Thanks.

If I were to submit a rule change proposal to abolish the 1 minute rule and force handlers to break their dog from babbling, how much support would I get?

Its probably too late.
May those who bulldogged this rule into effect ,slick tree in a head high patch of stinging nettles and poison ivy every time they turn loose.

DFred - Here's how I do it... and it requires more than one offense for me to make the decision.

On more than one occasion, the dog leaves barking like it's about to catch something. You would assume this means a hot track. Then all goes silent, and the next time the dog is heard is a considerable distance away. If the dog shuts up but stays relatively close by you could argue that it's trying to figure it out. But if it moved on, and the track didn't stay as hot as it seemed to be, when struck, then I make the judgment that they were babbling. ASSUMING they were struck each time.

If they weren't struck then no harm, no foul. That's what the minute was for... there's nothing wrong with the barking. It's the handler striking them, that is the issue.

You can't "prove" if a track is "evident" you can only make a judgment that if it was, then they would have barked between point A and point B.

As Michael pointed out... if they never shut up, they get to argue that there dog has a super better nose than everyone else!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Thanks for the input David. Your approach to making the judgement is a fair one. It seems from reading these posts that a lot of people are fed up with losing points to a fast strike dog. I think it is fair to assume many of these people would be quick to call a dog a babbler if they were judging the cast. I am hunting a young dog now that will be hard to beat for first strike and am wondering if that's gonna be a problem I'll have to deal with in the future.

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Originally posted by blckntan337
I hate that there isn't a more black and white rule about this bc I've experienced a lot of negative hunts bc dogs collared barking there head off n as soon as they say cut em still barking and get struck knowing good and well there not on a track every drop of the hunt..
Yes I know it's at the discretion of the judge and majority of the cast but the problem is what if it's a hunting judge and one or two other dogs along with the judges dog babbling and they won't admit to it then I'm just sol..
Just my 2 cents

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quote:

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Originally posted by DFred
Thanks for the input David. Your approach to making the judgement is a fair one. It seems from reading these posts that a lot of people are fed up with losing points to a fast strike dog. I think it is fair to assume many of these people would be quick to call a dog a babbler if they were judging the cast. I am hunting a young dog now that will be hard to beat for first strike and am wondering if that's gonna be a problem I'll have to deal with in the future.

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Originally posted by rthompson
shouldnt be anybody who has hunted any length of time can tell the difference.

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I hunt a low end strike dog but im not gonna minus a good one to win . a babbler will get it every opportunity i have.

I hunt a low end strike dog but im not gonna minus a good one to win . a babbler will get it every opportunity i have.

You can cut the dogs and shine them with a light as they run away.Its pretty obvious which dogs are gonna get 1st strike.There should be a rule if your dog face barks or runs the other dogs before they get outta sight there minused or scratched on the spot.Jmo