UKC Forums - withdrawing

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Posted by Buckshot on 05-13-2015 07:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Man1
When is walking it off acceptable? In this situation is was 20 minutes, next thing you know it will be 30.

The rule says 120 minutes must be completed to valitade a dogs score. I can see walking off a minute or 2 but other then that your simple breaking the rules.

LOL those 1 or 2 minutes you are talking about is probably how it became the 20 minutes -- then next the 30 minutes.

Refer back to your first sentence. LOL.

Posted by RLenhart on 05-13-2015 07:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by BufordTDawgBrea
You can't walk it off with 20 left. Read the rules.

I would agree 20 min is a little much to walk off but at the same time I have to say if It's me that's setting on 550+ with the rest of the cast in the minus column and I'm not interested in building a bigger score I'll make sure no more than one more tree get's scored and I'm probably not going to be 1st & 1st. My strike will ONLY be on the third bark, you Will use the stationary on me, and unless somebody else finds the coon in that last tree it WILL take 10min to find it. So at that point does it really pay you to hang in there just to watch a guy milk the clock?

Posted by sleepy head on 05-13-2015 08:04 PM:

Several years ago I was in a cast at walker days it was a cast of good Dogs. there was a spectator looking at buying one of the dogs in the cast this spectator was well known in the coon hunting world. Very early in the hunt he said 3 of u need to get out so the other can win the whole thing. I think 99% of us know that's not right. It bothered me

Posted by coonsmen on 05-13-2015 09:13 PM:

rules a put in place for a reason. if you can use them to your advantage like stated above( only striking on the 3rd bark, letting them put the stationary on etc..) go for it but don't break the rules.
that is why all competition hunts get a bad rap. the same person who says breaking one rule is fine in one situation will be the first to complain with another guy wanting to break rule for his advantage next time.
comp hunts are made to be uniform in nature.. keep them that way.

Posted by BufordTDawgBrea on 05-13-2015 10:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by gacoonchaser
And no ones ever done that before? I bet you're in quality control at your job. You must've never walked mountains all night.

Absolutely! Those mountains excuse all kinds of things. They should change rule #1 to say anyone hunting in mountains is free to ignore any rule that is just to tough for a mountain man to follow since that is what they are doing anyway.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-14-2015 05:29 PM:

I tried to find the rule in my rulebook that states how long you can walk with your dog on the leash and not call time out. Can someone tell me where to find it. How far/long can you walk off of a tree before you have to turn your dog loose? Where does it say that you have to call time out if you are traveling from one spot to another? I think that there use to be a rule that if it wasn't going to take more than 15 min, you could not call time out but that rule seems to have disappeared. Are y'all making up a rule that says you can't walk 20 minutes with your dog on the leash or is it actually "in the book"?

Posted by deschmidt27 on 05-14-2015 05:57 PM:

Under section 7. Time Outs, it reads:

(f) If all dogs are declared treed or are on leash time out shall be called after 10 minutes of hunt time has been used walking to each split tree. Time is back in during shining time or if dog leaves tree.

BUT there is also a section under section 6. Scratching Offenses, that probably wasn't intended for this purpose, but I would argue is applicable:

(c) Failing to make an attempt to hunt within any 15 consecutive scorecard minutes.

So we're supposed to hunt for a given amount of time, like 120 minutes. And if we haven't called time out, cause "we're walking out the clock" then we are within scorecard minutes, and if we're just walking our dogs on a leash, then one might argue nobody (dog or handler) is making an attempt to hunt!

Here's the deal... we're supposed to see what our dogs are capable of doing during a given period of hunting time, meaning the earning of plus and minus points. It's not up to us, to decide when we've achieved a satisfactory amount of plus points! If you have 10 minutes, 20 minutes, etc. then your dog has the potential to earn minus, and you have to give them that opportunity to be fair to all the other casts that hunted the full time.

Now we are also supposed to use our judgement, and if it would take longer for the dogs to get across a field or for us to walk to a new hunting area away form the current tree, than we have on the clock. Then run those couple minutes out, while you're walking to that new "hunting area". But c'mon, 10 minutes, 20 minutes a lot can happen in that amount of time.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-14-2015 06:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
Under section 7. Time Outs, it reads:

(f) probably wasn't intended for this purpose......I would argue is....

(c) ....So we're supposed to..... one might argue......

..... we're supposed to.......

.....we are also supposed to......

But y'all are saying that there is a rule. Where is it? I agree, there are a lot of "I would argues" and "supposed to's" and "common sense" used in a night hunt. But everyones "supposed to" and "common sense" is different. That is why there are very specific rules. And a lot of times people say, "the rules say" when actually the "rules" don't say that at all.

Posted by deschmidt27 on 05-14-2015 06:46 PM:

Richard,

You did a pretty good job of quoting my commentary, but you left out the rule. It's pretty simple. There's a scratching offense defined as...

(c) Failing to make an attempt to hunt within any 15 consecutive scorecard minutes.

SO if the clock is running, because the hunt time has not expired, your dog better be hunting.

With regards to any other ruling, I would venture a bet it's in the Advisor. But at the same time, when the Hunt Director or the MOH says, "This is a 2 hour hunt." it seems pretty clear that you should hunt for 2 hours. Are you looking for a rule, that says, "we really mean it" ?

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Posted by Randy Howard on 05-15-2015 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I will withdraw in a hart beat if I know I cant win. Most of the time it is in the last few minutes of a cast. Just handled the dogs off of a tree, mine is on the leash and I cant win with 10 minutes left. I'm not turning loose just to catch my dog a hour later and a mile deeper. I have never did it to get out of someones way, I have done it to save me some grief.

10-4 on that

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Posted by Kevin Deboy on 05-15-2015 03:15 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
Several years ago I was in a cast at walker days it was a cast of good Dogs. there was a spectator looking at buying one of the dogs in the cast this spectator was well known in the coon hunting world. Very early in the hunt he said 3 of u need to get out so the other can win the whole thing. I think 99% of us know that's not right. It bothered me

A spectator on a cast should spectate and keep their mouth shut , regardless of how well known he or she is. The judge should make this clear before dogs are cast. I am guessing the judge owned the dog that the spectator was looking to buy.

As far as the original question is concerned , if you are soundly beat and have your dog on leash. The withdrawal option can save a hunter a lot of grief.

jmo.

Posted by high ridge on 05-15-2015 03:19 AM:

I never have understood why someone stays in with no remote chance of winning. I won't

I also don't understand why if you make a first tree and dog backs you. You get done shining and ready to roll because you can tell other dogs are getting ready to get treed and you gonna be leash locked if you keep setting on that tree hoping for a bird to fly over and drop a coon in the tree and the other handler keeps shining.

Most don't know what that clock is and when you need to be cut and when you need to remain treed.

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Posted by JiM on 05-15-2015 03:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
Richard,

You did a pretty good job of quoting my commentary, but you left out the rule. It's pretty simple. There's a scratching offense defined as...

(c) Failing to make an attempt to hunt within any 15 consecutive scorecard minutes.

SO if the clock is running, because the hunt time has not expired, your dog better be hunting.

With regards to any other ruling, I would venture a bet it's in the Advisor. But at the same time, when the Hunt Director or the MOH says, "This is a 2 hour hunt." it seems pretty clear that you should hunt for 2 hours. Are you looking for a rule, that says, "we really mean it" ?

That rule only applies to dogs that are loose, it cannot be applied to a dog that is on leash. So that rule does not apply to this question in any way.

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Posted by RLenhart on 05-15-2015 03:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by coonsmen
rules a put in place for a reason. if you can use them to your advantage like stated above( only striking on the 3rd bark, letting them put the stationary on etc..) go for it but don't break the rules.
that is why all competition hunts get a bad rap. the same person who says breaking one rule is fine in one situation will be the first to complain with another guy wanting to break rule for his advantage next time.
comp hunts are made to be uniform in nature.. keep them that way.

X2
That was me that made the comment your referring to and having said it I probably sound like I'm all in favor of breaking the rules and running the clock out. I'm actually not all I really meant by that was to the guy asking if it's unsportsman like to withdraw in that situation I say go for it if it saves you some steps to retrieve your dog because if a guy with that kind of lead wants to run it out he's going to even if he has to milk it the way I layed it out. Staying in to the bitter end really isn't going to affect him that much.

Posted by JiM on 05-15-2015 04:00 PM:

As for this question of "walking it out", rule 7(f) stated that if all dogs are treed OR ALL DOGS ARE ON LEASH, timeout SHALL be called after 10 minutes walking time. So, technically, you could "walk off" up to 10 minutes of running clock time.
It should be noted that if a dog is struck and loose, you MUST cast your dog when the 8 is broke unless a dog(s) is declared treed. So after scoring a tree, how long that dog(s) is on leash is totally controlled by how long it takes to break the 8. If the 8 is broke 6 steps from the tree, you must recast 6 steps from the tree.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-15-2015 04:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
you MUST cast your dog when the 8 is broke unless a dog(s) is declared treed......If the 8 is broke 6 steps from the tree, you must recast 6 steps from the tree.

Oh my goodness...I always thought that you didn't start the eight until all handlers had walked far enough away from the tree that they were comfortable with cutting their dogs loose? And, I think, the question of "walking out" only pertains to all dogs being on the leash.

Posted by JiM on 05-15-2015 04:44 PM:

Where did you get that Richard? I can't find anything in the rules that support that. I think you start the 8 when the tree is scored.

Posted by shadinc on 05-15-2015 04:56 PM:

What are we talking about? Everybody that's been on a competition hunt knows you can't walk out 20 minutes. And you can't BEND a rule. You either follow them or break them.

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 05-15-2015 05:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Where did you get that Richard? I can't find anything in the rules that support that. I think you start the 8 when the tree is scored.

I always understood the cast would get in the last general location of the dog carrying strike before starting the 8.

The way some of these dogs blow the pocket it wouldn't be fair to walk a mile from a dog then start the 8.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 05-15-2015 05:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
That rule only applies to dogs that are loose, it cannot be applied to a dog that is on leash. So that rule does not apply to this question in any way.

I agree that, that's how I've always applied it, and probably the normal use of the rule, BUT where does it say that it only applies to dogs that are loose? It does say ANY 15 consecutive scorecard minutes...

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Posted by on 05-15-2015 05:33 PM:

Another reason for withdrawing. I am not talking about a small hunt here but more and more and especially in other registries the results are posted for all to see. Many of the handlers now a days are paid. It is easier to withdraw and have a WD placed on the computer for all to see than a large score of minus points.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 05-15-2015 06:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I think you start the 8 when the tree is scored.

So, do you start the eight as soon as the tree is scored and then walk away from it? Or do you walk away and then start the eight. What if the dog out on strike is way deep and you don't hear him/her while you are walking? I have been in several hunts and I have never seen anyone start the eight as soon as the tree is scored. Where in the rules do you see that? I also always thought that you walked to the last place you heard the dog before you started the eight. I am really getting confused now. I couldn't find any of this in the "rules" that everyone is so upset about "breaking". It really sounds to me like it is a matter of personal opinion.

Posted by buck brush on 05-15-2015 06:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I agree that, that's how I've always applied it, and probably the normal use of the rule, BUT where does it say that it only applies to dogs that are loose? It does say ANY 15 consecutive scorecard minutes...

I did not know a dog could hunt if it was on a leash, it seems to me it would have to be lose to be able to show it was not hunting .

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Posted by River Birch Run on 05-15-2015 06:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Where did you get that Richard? I can't find anything in the rules that support that. I think you start the 8 when the tree is scored.

You can't start the 8 or 2 If the dog was treed until you walk back two the last place the dog was heard before you walked into score a tree. That has been cover by Allen in the bloodlines.

Walking it out- Rule 6 (I) Scratching Offenses
For hunting over or under the advertised hunt time.

Withdrawing- If you can't win it is shameful to stay in the hunt just to hold another dog down.

example, I was hunting and RQE with 19 cast. We were in a patch woods. 1st tree I had 1st and 1st on a coon. A couple of dogs took minus and one dog was still running. We had to cut back. Well after that we tree on several Dens other dogs took more minus and withdrew. The dog was still running after 4 trees in this patch woods and 1hr 30 gone in the hunt I finally asked the guy why he would enter a dog that couldn't get treed at an RQE and ruin it for other dogs. He said well I worked all winter to keep my dog from treeing with other dogs. He said why were you wanting to go to another woods? I was like well ya after the 1st tree. He then called his dog in and said he was happy with his training the dog did what he wanted. I was lucky enough to score on 3 more coon that night. He then said he was sorry he now new why I was upset. Wow some people.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 05-15-2015 07:26 PM:

Rebecca nailed it, not sure how I missed it, when I did a search for "time"!

Rule 6 Scratching Offenses
(I) For hunting over or under the advertised hunt time.

That's pretty black and white!

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