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Bruce i think once a dog is far enough along to know their job putting a nice handle on them is iceing on the cake.
A few years ago i wrecked a real nice well bred pup with this stuff, he was my buddy, went to the shop with me everyday, by the time he was 6 months old he knew a dozen tricks, was smart as a whip. The problem was he was also my buddy in the woods, he was perfectly happy to hang out at my side and wasnt to crazy about other dogs coming near me.
Now maybe he would have turned out useless either way, il never know but i will never do that with another one until the are gettin the job done first.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

When I read a training post like this, my thought is always that there needs to be many more of them just like it. I am just making great personal progress in learning about this and experimenting with food drive training. Training takes a second seat to discussions on genetics and breeding while in my opinion it stands alone as the primary key to success. This subject in particular I have recently found deserves much more attention. Not only by us coon hound trainers but also behavioral scientists. What I mean is they should put more emphasis on literature where food drive and prey drive training is combined like in this thread. I have had little luck finding literature on that subject to study. It is difficult to explain but I have experienced that while a given dogs food drive may be a stronger influence on its learning rate that its prey drive remains the primary reinforcement. Don't ask me to explain that but it is an important observation and is contradictory to secondary reinforcement theory being that I observed the food reward is less desirable than the prey reward but in this one case it is the primary learning driver. If anyone did read this that has insight on it I would appreciate their input is the real reason I mention it. Lets just move on

Let me share with you my experiences. My 2014 project on my website is the first I have experimented with training by significantly taking advantage of food drive and combining that with prey drive training. Trust me you would like him. He is treeing his own coons and while he is still in training, he has the basics down and exhibits great traits for being loud treeing hard attempting to be accurate, making lay ups and split treeing.

When I say significantly combining prey drive with food drive training I mean it was more involved than just a treat at the tree. I was going to give up on him because his prey drive did not seem to be strong enough to cause him to progress at the rate many of my other projects have in the past. What I have learned is that I could additionally take advantage of his food drive to very significantly speed things along. What I did was read up on food drive training. Not the basic dog training techniques like we are all fairly familiar with hearing about but more detailed topics like feeding schedules to use and feeding and treat portions.

Not all dogs will require you to take advantage of food drive for hunting training I agree but before you give up on a training project give some thought to taking advantage of its food drive. There is a real chance it could pay off for you like it has me. Research more about it. Not just the treat to use but how to feed the dog its regular meals when using training feed treats and what size portions to feed throughout the day. Once I am confident in using it in this manner and find answers to a couple questions like the one earlier that still puzzle me I am going to document what I learned in more detail on my website as well.

__________________
Randy Novak
Author
www.trainingthetreedog.com
Home of
Nt. Ch. PKC CH. Novak's Easy Flo IV

.

I have two perfect test subjects here. One is 3 and one is less than a year. The young one is hard going and wants nothing but to go when turned loose. The older one is hard going also. I keep them in 5x10 pens inside a fenced 40x80 area. I let them out and now they get to running around playing and then come over to me which I am sitting in a chair watching and they want me to play. I just came in from out there and I just walked to their pen door and called and each went in their pen. No yelling or chasing them around. Now in the morning I am taking them with me while I work on my puppy area which is twenty acres. I will let you know what they do then. I expect them to hunt all over the pen and only look for me if they tree.
Trust me I hear what your saying and I am keeping a watchful eye out for any problems. This subject kind of reminds me of the group that will discipline a dog on the tree and the group that won't. I will and if it affects them I didn't need that dog to begin with. In my pen or breeding program.
I just wish I was younger, this sport like so many things in life don't seem fair. It takes a lot of young energy to keep these dogs going but when I had that energy, I like so many had a family that needed me and they needed my energy. Now I have time and a decent truck to take me hunting the energy seems to be low. Maybe I need a treat. Lol

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Everyone likes a dog that handles well, but i think anything that is going to have a young dogs mind on his handler and waiting for a treat is going to be a distraction in the woods. giveing a pup a treat at the tree sure seems like a good way to have one coming off the tree to find the guy with the pocket full of wieners.

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Bruce i think once a dog is far enough along to know their job putting a nice handle on them is iceing on the cake.
A few years ago i wrecked a real nice well bred pup with this stuff, he was my buddy, went to the shop with me everyday, by the time he was 6 months old he knew a dozen tricks, was smart as a whip. The problem was he was also my buddy in the woods, he was perfectly happy to hang out at my side and wasnt to crazy about other dogs coming near me.
Now maybe he would have turned out useless either way, il never know but i will never do that with another one until the are gettin the job done first.

---

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

quote:

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Originally posted by dropthetailgate
When I read a training post like this, my thought is always that there needs to be many more of them just like it. I am just making great personal progress in learning about this and experimenting with food drive training. Training takes a second seat to discussions on genetics and breeding while in my opinion it stands alone as the primary key to success. This subject in particular I have recently found deserves much more attention. Not only by us coon hound trainers but also behavioral scientists. What I mean is they should put more emphasis on literature where food drive and prey drive training is combined like in this thread. I have had little luck finding literature on that subject to study. It is difficult to explain but I have experienced that while a given dogs food drive may be a stronger influence on its learning rate that its prey drive remains the primary reinforcement. Don't ask me to explain that but it is an important observation and is contradictory to secondary reinforcement theory being that I observed the food reward is less desirable than the prey reward but in this one case it is the primary learning driver. If anyone did read this that has insight on it I would appreciate their input is the real reason I mention it. Lets just move on

Let me share with you my experiences. My 2014 project on my website is the first I have experimented with training by significantly taking advantage of food drive and combining that with prey drive training. Trust me you would like him. He is treeing his own coons and while he is still in training, he has the basics down and exhibits great traits for being loud treeing hard attempting to be accurate, making lay ups and split treeing.

When I say significantly combining prey drive with food drive training I mean it was more involved than just a treat at the tree. I was going to give up on him because his prey drive did not seem to be strong enough to cause him to progress at the rate many of my other projects have in the past. What I have learned is that I could additionally take advantage of his food drive to very significantly speed things along. What I did was read up on food drive training. Not the basic dog training techniques like we are all fairly familiar with hearing about but more detailed topics like feeding schedules to use and feeding and treat portions.

Not all dogs will require you to take advantage of food drive for hunting training I agree but before you give up on a training project give some thought to taking advantage of its food drive. There is a real chance it could pay off for you like it has me. Research more about it. Not just the treat to use but how to feed the dog its regular meals when using training feed treats and what size portions to feed throughout the day. Once I am confident in using it in this manner and find answers to a couple questions like the one earlier that still puzzle me I am going to document what I learned in more detail on my website as well.

---

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

OUR SPORT IS DIFFERENT

Almost every single thing that a man does with a dog works out better if there is a close personal bond between the two, In the 70s and 80s i trained personal and industrial protection dogs, establishing a realationship between those dogs and their handlers was a critical part of the training process. I have also been involved with drug dogs and mantrackers/cadaver dogs, and in all these fields a close relationship between dog and handler makes or breaks the dogs ability to do their job.
Coondogs are the exception,partly because they cant operate in close proximity to their handler and partly because so much of what they do has to be instinctual. All that should be required for a coonhound to perform is a ride to the woods, my dogs will be good to go for anyone with a light on their head that will give them a ride.
Dogs dont for the most part have the ability to multitask,any distraction in the woods will only hinder the use of their inbred ability, pull a young dog in training out of the box and the first thing he smells are the goodies in his handlers pocket, do you suppose that will encourage his desire to go chase something or distract him from what we want him to do?
If brains and trainability were the answer we would all be treeing coon with border collies, useing food drive or praise as a substitute for prey drive and instinctual ability might seem effective in the short term but wont make a lick of difference in the finished product. JMO.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Some good points John. I would agree, a bond with a dog that has a hole the size of the moon. Won't make that hole go away. I would argue that a bond with a hound won't ruin a dog either. If anything I would think it would encourage a trainer to be more patient if a dog goes into a slump given the dog time to climb out of it.

I do agree our sport has a different dynamic. The dogs are pretty much hunting for themselves, and doing what they do because its what they love to do. Not what we teach them. I do think many don't get a fair shot though due to poor or no training programs. Other things like preventing bad habits and things like that are up to us as well. I also think for the average hunter at the local level, much can be gained from a humans standpoint by having a bond with there dog.

I personally have used treats for other stuff, kenneling, loading, that sort of thing. I haven't used any with success in the field. After seeing this thread I do think I will revisit the idea. If anything it would take way any reason to pet or praise the dog at the tree. A treat would get the message across clearly and avoid any unwanted excitement. Jmo

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

I want to fix something I said first. I used the word portion earlier and I met proportion of food.

John I have to respectably disagree on the fact that food drive can't be manipulated successfully with coon hound hunting dogs to teach hunting behaviors. At least some of them depending on individual innate drive. I am going to make a video when I can to show exactly that. My 2014 training project has all the instinctive tools his mom has. Such as treeing loud and hard, stay power, layup ability etc... etc... but had it not been for taking advantage of his food drive in combination with his prey drive it would not have been tapped into, at least not at an acceptable accelerated rate as compared to others I trained. Doing so in no way inhibited his desire to tree which was the first behavior I addressed. It only strengthened it in leaps and bounds. And now again it has in no way inhibited his hunt which is actually the second behavior I have now been addressing. He is not side tracked with looking to me for treats. Rather just the opposite, he is more concentrated on finishing his lesson and beginning to hunt out wider after manipulating his food drive. He knows the reward only come at the end of a successful find. I will agree that you may need to be careful in how you introduce the rewards. I do not give him the opportunity to find the food on my person but he is well aware I deliver it at the end of the successful behavior lesson at the tree.

__________________
Randy Novak
Author
www.trainingthetreedog.com
Home of
Nt. Ch. PKC CH. Novak's Easy Flo IV

.

I go to sleep thinking about these dogs and I wake up thinking about them. Lipper, Adios Lightning and Adios Eagle were the example of hounds I woke up thinking about this morning.
This is me speaking but GENETICS is first when it comes to what I want in a hound. People say thats stupid they all have genetics or they wouldn't be alive. Correct but I want specific coon hound genetics that fits my hunting style, conditions and minds eye of what a coon hound should be. The more Genetics align with my way of thinking the easier it is for me and MY dogs (not yours) to get along. You may want different genetic traits in your hounds. Example, Adios Eagle.
That dog won two PKC National Championships. I think Adios Lightning won one also and Eagles Grand Dad Lipper won two.
Lot of similar genetic traits right there with good men handling them. I admire, appreciate and am in awe at what Eagle accomplished. I hunted with him many times. He was the only hound I ever saw that my Wildlife Tracking System could not keep up with. I would guide cast and turn him out in woods that if my hounds would of just hunted a little farther would have struck a coon. Eagle was the opposite. He would blow by all those coon and find another one. No disrespect there, just facts. He was the hardest hunting dog, I ever saw. Hardwood Dan was a close second and hunted more to my liking.
I said all that to say. Find the style dog you want because there are a lot of styles and then hopefully find a dog from that group that GENETICS caused it to suit you. Then fine tune and keep the ruff edges off with the "Switch or Treat" method you choose to use.
Talking Genetics--Hardwood Dan also set records but the Genetic side of things didn't seem to work out for his offspring. Us Old Timers information use to come once a month in the form of a magazine. Generally the American Cooner or Full Cry. How many times you see someone that had put ads in the magazine for years talking about their Stud Dog. Only to have that dog die and they have to go buy a replacement. If it was such a Stud Dog I would think a Son of it should of replaced it. No I didn't just stick a knife in the Genetic thing. Just that sometimes someone making money with their hounds causes people see things that are not there.

Food drive

I for one have never used it in the woods but did find that it can and did work for me with a young hound that never was hunted or handled until he came to the kennel. Teaching him to lead and load was going know wheres for me. He was one that once the food hit the bowl,he was eating it till gone. Well,I took advantage of it and started to feed him in the dog box! Two times and that pup loaded like a dream from then on! As far as the leading part,not as well but he got the message the old fashion way. Would I give it a try in the timber,certainly but never had the need so far. Some good thoughts here!! Danny G.

__________________
Danny G

What I derive from my experience so far is all things being equal, innate traits, intelligence etc. the only thing different being drive. Is that you could grade overall drive 1 to 10. A dog with a ten prey drive will train out with the same results training with prey drive alone as one that has a 5 prey drive and 5 food drive if you take advantage of both. Hope that makes sense. I am thinking the second types are maybe being overlooked

__________________
Randy Novak
Author
www.trainingthetreedog.com
Home of
Nt. Ch. PKC CH. Novak's Easy Flo IV

quote:

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Originally posted by dropthetailgate
I want to fix something I said first. I used the word portion earlier and I met proportion of food.

John I have to respectably disagree on the fact that food drive can't be manipulated successfully with coon hound hunting dogs to teach hunting behaviors. At least some of them depending on individual innate drive. I am going to make a video when I can to show exactly that. My 2014 training project has all the instinctive tools his mom has. Such as treeing loud and hard, stay power, layup ability etc... etc... but had it not been for taking advantage of his food drive in combination with his prey drive it would not have been tapped into, at least not at an acceptable accelerated rate as compared to others I trained. Doing so in no way inhibited his desire to tree which was the first behavior I addressed. It only strengthened it in leaps and bounds. And now again it has in no way inhibited his hunt which is actually the second behavior I have now been addressing. He is not side tracked with looking to me for treats. Rather just the opposite, he is more concentrated on finishing his lesson and beginning to hunt out wider after manipulating his food drive. He knows the reward only come at the end of a successful find. I will agree that you may need to be careful in how you introduce the rewards. I do not give him the opportunity to find the food on my person but he is well aware I deliver it at the end of the successful behavior lesson at the tree.

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__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

I have started all my pups in the past ten years using the same structured training program where the hunting lessons are prey or play drive oriented lesson based. The difference between play and prey drive if there is any is debatable among experts. I choose there is none as It simplifies thing for me. I am still at a stage as a trainer I have enough to think about what I'm doing to stay consistent. That is other than if they won't start to train for a toy they will at a minimum take too much of my time up. I use food treats for agility and obedience training. I don't worry at that point about feeding schedules thus far anyway. My 2014 project was slacking I guess you'd say but well started treeing in the wild but not giving his all before I introduced him to using food drive techniques for hunting. He had me frustrated but he had clearly showed he had it in him. I read up on using food drive techniques and added ity to the mix. I should state that I continue using yard lessons well after they are moved to actual hunting. Even treeing their own game. So to maintain. Controlled environments. The articles I found explained about how to feed the project dog. Like small portions throughout the day for example to keep its food drive higher. Is that what you mean. Like I do a training g lesson and take his dog food to the tree with me to give it to him. I follow all my other training rules as normal. Start out simple for example when you Introduce a new idea And other small details but simply saying that after a couple lessons he got to realiz what was going on.

__________________
Randy Novak
Author
www.trainingthetreedog.com
Home of
Nt. Ch. PKC CH. Novak's Easy Flo IV

Mr Bruce not wanting to come of like a smarty pants but I was in Texas during the lipper hay day hunted a several for other people hunted with some of the ones you mentioned I don't think the treat method would have worked with them but I would have liked to have had an alpha back then lol

One important food drive rule I forgot to mention is don't feed the dog again for at least a half hour after training lesson. There are more rules to follow so look for some good literature that tells you about that stuff.

__________________
Randy Novak
Author
www.trainingthetreedog.com
Home of
Nt. Ch. PKC CH. Novak's Easy Flo IV

Yadkintar

We need all the experienced information we can get and appreciate your input. Half the nonsense I write on here is to just get people thinking and motivated to write their thoughts so we can all learn. For those that hate me, it's OK as long as you write something some young person can benefit by and 40 years from now on their super cyber boards it can be discussed.

Yadkintar I bet some dried deer meat could of got those Lipper dogs attention.
All joking aside I made a decision back in the 70's which line of dogs suited my hunting conditions the best. They were the line of dogs that Lipper came from. I had a male out of House's Chief, raised pups for House's Tom Tom which would of been half brothers and sisters to Clint who was Lippers Daddy. I saw the walker breed before and after Lipper. He did put something different in his pups and the guys that got them seemed proud and dedicated to keeping them in the woods.

dropthetailgate

Enjoyed your videos.

Bruce I like you see the difference in the the before and after lipper I myself liked the grand pups better not nocking on anybody just putting in some input in I myself like the tar rattler and lipper crosses the best but all I was saying was the lipper dogs would separate the men from the boys it took a lot of hard hard all night every night hunting and a firm hand just joking about the treats but I like deer jerky I would have to test it first if it didn't make me sick I might give a little to the dog lol!!!

.

Any top Stud I analyze by asking myself "What made that dogs pups different and popular"? Generally falls into one or two groups which are also the two main groups I put these Walker Dogs in.
1. Track dogs that will tree.
2. Tree dogs that will track.
I think the most important thing to look at when deciding which group of dogs you want is "Where you live".
I think it takes a different kind of dog in thin coon with extremely hot conditions than it does in areas where coon are plentiful and the areas to hunt are smaller with more favorable tracking conditions.
I always put House Bred dogs in the Track Dogs that would tree group. I put the Sackett, jr and Rat Attack dogs in the Tree dog group that would run.
Take the second part of either group away and what do you have.
With the Track dogs that will tree you have a bunch of running dogs that don't look up. With the Tree Dogs that won't track you have a bunch of slick trees.
Again depending on where you live and your hunting conditions you make your choice. Down here in these swamps I guarantee you would not put up going to many trees that don't have coon. If my hunting was like walking in the park, I might put up with it.
If your up North and your running dogs goes by 5 coon sitting up to tree one a mile away you might not be happy either.
The good news is the secret to success today is the same as it was back in the 70's. Get you one and get to the woods and don't lie to yourself about it.

Good analogy Bruce, its the "tree dogs that will track" for me, exactly for the reasons you listed. I sure would love another chance to have a couple little Rat pups to start.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

I like you have really rough hunting swamps briers downed timber ( gov land ) it's so rough the deer hunters won't go in it you have to have a dog with a lot of sense and heart you turn a dog that don't have either you better have somthing to control them with that come here puppy won't work your right find dogs that fit your needs in the area you live I get tickled at the young people when they go to bragging on they're pups at 8 months old out of certain bloodlines doing all that and a bag of chips and at 15 months to 2 yrs old they are on here for sale you got to give a lot of breeders a lot of credit they make a lot of crosses that the pups start extremely early ( that's what the public wants time the pup gets 15 months old they already got your money like selling a used car that just runs good enough to get I off the lot as far as the lipper dogs go out of 5000 pups his percentages should have been a lot better but if you needed to put some spark back in your kennel he would do it this is all based on what I have personlly seen not hearsay or reading it in a book ( I love to debate) just my opinion I respect your opinion very much mr Bruce your friend : robert hitt

Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey

How many times you see someone that had put ads in the magazine for years talking about their Stud Dog. Only to have that dog die and they have to go buy a replacement. If it was such a Stud Dog I would think a Son of it should of replaced it. No I didn't just stick a knife in the Genetic thing. Just that sometimes someone making money with their hounds causes people see things that are not there.

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So true Bruce.I prefer a natural tree dog.Where I live you can go 20 miles one way and be in thin coon and 20 miles the other way and be in thick coon.Eiether way these coons around here love to layup so our dogs have to be pretty balanced to look good here.