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-- Developing a Training Program (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928406091)

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Originally posted by Fisher13
Lol thread officially Derailed!!

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Gareth, big 10-4 on that.

T-Rex is off Coma's Stylish Legend and Lone Pine Honeybuns. Very nice young dog. The mother to Clide would be Trackgirl who is off Trackman and Lone Pine Patsy.

Not experts on breeding here, we've had some failures too. It's always a roll of the dice.

ok, back on track now...

that plan looks way too structured to me. I've always just let them be pups for awhile. Let them run loose if you can, if not, take them for walks in the woods daily. Work on the obedience stuff, makes things alot easier down the road. I wouldn't worry about the coon stuff until later.

I guess it's all the same, just your version is in outline.

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"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Lone Pine North

My weakness is structure, it is still probably pretty aggressive and I'm already rethinking it. I think what I'm looking for is more consistency and goal setting. I haven't had time to work on it here lately and it will probably take several months to get where I like it and a month later ill pry scrap the whole thing lol. I think I also want to add some balance to it.

In the past I've always done obedience first then hunting stuff. I would like to combine the 2 so for example say I'm out in the yard teaching the dog to lead, after that session is done I might get out a hide and tie it to a rope and just play with the pup with it as a reward for working on leading.

So in one session I have not only accomplished some obedience training and established a foundation for communication, I have imprinted that chasing a coon hide is fun.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

I think this is a great idea I have my own way of training but I like to see what other people are doing it will help even the small guy out a little there might not be as many junk dogs I one day would like to be known as a breeder and trainer that is my goal in the end I won't always be able to hunt so im setting the roots now and I keep most of the litter till there old enough to know which ones are better I start training them on coon sent the day they are born by rubbing it on the mothers tits they think of coon sent as food keep posting people do like to read it

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A lot of time !!!!! A lot of patience !!!!!!somemore time and a hell of a lot more patience !!!!! 1-5/6 months old let them run daily play with them puttheminthe woodland reeks to run daily every time you call them they're learning to come !!! 5-8 months old I usually show them onecoon during daylight hours let the see coon run outta trap across field let them runi it and tree it !!!if they do knock it out !!!!! Then start hunting the at night alone !!! Hunt hunt hunt and hunt some more !! In thin coon you will have some bad nights but that show it's done if they haven't in them!!! Whenyou call them in to you at night hit the tone button !!! Or blow whistle within no time they will be tone broke and whistle broke !!! Hunt some more and if they don't pan out cull and start over !!! This is thebest way to start a pup to actually know what you have in the shortest period of time!!! With another dogs you get hitch hikers andmeetooers!!!! If they have any brains ,ability and heart you will see it from the first night out !!!!they do not learn those traits !!! And then if the pup is still there get another new pair of boots and wear them out and by that time you will have one thats ready for town or aloof nights of pleasure !!! Guaranteed if you did all the other steps correct and were honest with yourself in your conclusions !!!! Guys you don't train a dog to run and tree coon and run super cold tracks and tree standing upright 120 bpm. They have it or they don't !! You train to sit stay and come !!! Good luck and don't forget the patience !!!!

Consistency is extremely important! Dogs understand consistency. Inconsistency confuses them.

Pick out what commands you feel are important. Some of mine are NO, sit, stay, up, heel, behind, dead, in a hole. Behind works better than heel when you are walking out of a swamp. Work on those commands that you want until you start hunting the pup.

Spend time with the pup. Make lessons fun. Until they are about 4 months old (as already pointed out) have the pups experience be good rather than bad. Good experiences increase confidence, and bad experiences decrease confidence. You want a fit, happy, intelligent dog, and confident puppy. Boredom only leads to trouble.

Have fun!

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Potomac I agree having a young dog run loose would be good, so they can naturally stimulate themselves.
Unfortunately I don't have this option so I think the next best thing is yard time. I guess my program would be geared towards someone more in my situation.

Larry yes that's what I'm trying to figure out prioritizing my obedience lesson with hunting in mind.

I believe I'm gonna change No to Off. I also think I may skip sit and focus more on up (load) and down. The obedience aspects are fairly straightforward.
I'm probably the most interested in creating games that someday will hopefully imprint the desire to chase track and tree. The link that Ron posted has some cool ideas on that stuff. I guess my overall goal would be to create a program that would simulate the things learned by a pup that grew up on a farm chasing barn cats and squirrels, with a balance of obedience.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

The commands you choose are 100% up to you. To many sit may not be high on their list. I use the sit command to help reinforce calm behavior. I do not pet my dogs unless they are sitting and calm. Usually by the time the young dog is 12 months old I hard.ly ever use the command. The young dog will sit and remain calm when ever I approach it.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

quote:

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Iriginally posted by Larry Atherton
The commands you choose are 100% up to you. To many sit may not be high on their list. I use the sit command to help reinforce calm behavior. I do not pet my dogs unless they are sitting and calm. Usually by the time the young dog is 12 months old I hard.ly ever use the command. The young dog will sit and remain calm when ever I approach it.

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Week 8

Meet Ozzy!

We picked up Ozzy this weekend. Outside of the snow on the way out, the trip went well. We arrived back at home safe and sound. Randy Smith had a beautiful home with clean kennels and all the pups appeared to be in good health. It was obvious that the lone pine guys were a good group of gentlemen, that had a passion for the sport and were great to deal with. Now on to the pup.

It never ceases to amaze me the differences in each pup. So far Ozzy has been really laid back. All of my dogs have taken a liking to him, as well as my kids and wife. He has been easy to transition into the pack due to his lower energy levels which has been very nice. However this leaves me some worries and hope this doesn't translate into being a lazy hunter. Only time will tell. I am strong believer that in every litter there are different temperaments between litter mates. Some pups need encouraged and built up and others need reigned in and a firmer hand so to speak. I think a good trainer will adjust his approach accordingly to each pup.

So far most of my focus has been on helping him feel welcomed and at home. The biggest challenge with him so far has been transitioning him into a crate. Due to the fact I live in neighborhood, I don't have the option of the traditional route and having a puppy pen. So I like to keep a young pup indoors to be socialized and then moved outside when there old enough to be trained to be quiet in the kennel.

Whenever I crate Ozzy, he begins to immediately howl whine and bark in protest. My first plan was to kennel him in the basement and hope he just gives up. However after the first 2 nights of crateing him in the basement it was clear this course of action was not working. His voice was beginning to show signs of hoarseness, and he was slow to give up and go to sleep. I have since come up with a solution. By putting a blanket over the back half of the kennel, I can now stand behind the blanket out of his view with a spray bottle filled with water. When ever he commences to barking he gets a spray of water. This has been extremely effective and do to the fact the blanket is blocking his line of sight, he can't associate the correction from me, which I feel is important because we are just becoming acquainted.

He has adjusted to wearing the collar, and once he is crate broke and house broke my plan is to introduce him to walking on a lead. My goal is to have him walking on the lead comfortably, crate trained, and house broke by 10 weeks. This is very aggressive but his progress so far has been nothing short of excellent.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Up date

Well, I am a little short on sleep and time. My wife is due in April, so I'm pressing to get the baby room painted by the end of the week.
Between 3 year old daughter and 2 yr old son, 5 dogs and getting ready for the baby I have my hands full to say the least. Fortunately it is all very rewarding.

Ozzy's training has been going well. As with most males, he has been a struggle to housebreak. However a couple times in the past few days he has sat over by the patio door to go relieve himself. I have found keeping a fresh pork bone outside seems to give him just enough of the extra incentive to get him out more. I also use my other house dogs to lead him out. If I just open the door, I would often end up just pushing him out, however by calling Max, my male bischon to go out, Ozzy follows him out every time. None the less it has been a battle, he seems to eliminate about every 20 minutes and sometimes more.

He is crate trained for the most part, he has wondered in on his own a few times for a nap in the past few days. I believe he now knows the command "Kennel". This is his first verbal command. I decided to go with this, since I have been feeding him his meals in his kennel, it only makes sense to say kennel while placing his food bowl in the kennel. I now have him where upon giving the command kennel he will freely enter his kennel and sit and wait for his food. Not bad for a 9 week old pup.

He is now used to walking on a lead, I believe I will wait till around 14 to 16 weeks to begin teaching him to heel and introducing a slip lead.`

As with all puppies, his biting is pretty horrible. I believe breaking him of his biting and continuing his house breaking will be my immediate focus. Finding time to play with him has also been challenging, but kids seem to be picking up where I am dropping the ball. My daughter especially has been having a lot of fun with him.
I am glad I started this thread though it really helps remind me of overall goals and not to become discouraged with the daily annoyances that can come with a young pup in the house.

This pic cracks me up, I think it looks Ozzy is being held against his own will. Lol

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Week 10 and 11

Sorry for the lack of updates, but last week was crazy. Ozzy was a terror and his housebreaking had been going horribly. However I things are looking up and my persistence has paid off and today was the first day with out an accident! I often find myself wondering why I put myself through this knowing he is only going to be moved outside. On the other hand he is become a big part of the family, and my kids are having a ball with him.

A lot has changed, I have since given up on any goals of teaching commands outside of No and simply having been trying to focus on getting Ozzy on a schedule, and working on a routine where I can find time to take on the extra work of caring for another dog. There was a pretty rough patch last week where it seemed like he was never going to be house broke. He simply had no desire to go out into the frigid temps, to relieve himself. I have since started feeding him outside so now it is not near the battle to get him to go willingly outside.

I have taken a step back with much of my training. Most of his time is spent playing or sleeping and this seems to suit him well.

I believe I will change the name of the first phase to socialization. Much of my focus has been just introducing him to things like a car rides and proper manners around the house, and getting him on a schedule. He has really come out of his shell and now has been displaying some dominant tendencies. I have been doing some feeding exercises where he must wait for the older dogs of the house to finish there feed, before he gets his. This isespecially challenging for a young puppy but I have found it helpful for him to learn to respect others in the pack.

Another area of work has been teaching him not to bite, I have been correcting this by either a firm scolding or I put my hand around his muzzle and squeeze his lips over his teeth. He has progressed well with this and seems to playing with my kids and the other dogs in a well mannered way.

My only other hound has taken over many of my duties, she plays with Ozzy regularly and has accepted him as if he was one of her own. This is why I have decide to take a step back with many of my own goals. It seems even though my best efforts have been to improve upon others people training programs, it has occurred to me the best thing a young pup can have is another dog for them to play with. It seems as if Roxy my only hound that lives indoors at the moment has become an invaluable tool for meeting Ozzy's needs. There play seems to be naturally tracking him for the instincts he will need in the woods.

Ozzy is extremely well mannered and overall has been very easy to work with. He responds well to verbal scolding and a wagging of the finger. Which makes working with a pup very enjoyable. His hard headed ways has seem to fade and is showing to be very intelligent.
I have been taking him on car rides getting him used to this as well.

In summary it seems that my program will be put off for another week or 2. As soon as the weather breaks I will begin work on a lead, some time in the woods and probably an introduction to a coon hide.

I have some pics he is growing like a weed and looks as if he will follow in his sires footsteps in being a very houndy dog. Unfortunately I am having some trouble with photobucket right now, hopefully I can find time to get them posted tomorrow. Fingers crossed that this weather will break soon and I can start getting him acclimated to the woods.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

I don't really do that much with a pup from weaning to about 4 or 5 months old.

crate training and some basic commands are about it. crate training because IMO it is one of the most useful and most ignored part of training a dog. its not just for house training.

I have never in my life trained 2 dogs exactly the same way on the same time table. as the dog matures and progresses, and i learn the dog, I fit the lessons to the dog. every one is different and what works for one might be disaster for another. the job of a trainer is pretty simple. find out what makes that dog tick and use that to mold them into the desired result the best they can given the limits of there genetics.

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when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

Couldn't agree more flag, I think I am learning training dogs is more of a mindset then anything. By being consistent in what is expected from day 1. So far his needs seem to be simple play eat and sleep. It has been very enjoyable watching him grow. He has been welcomed distraction at a time when our winters grow long and dreary.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

It's been awhile since we had a puppy here. I always forget how fast they grow.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
Couldn't agree more flag, I think I am learning training dogs is more of a mindset then anything. By being consistent in what is expected from day 1. .

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__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

Very interesting thread, and everything your pup learns will make life easier when you go to the woods.
Heres the hitch... even from the very best litters MAYBE 25% get what it takes genetically to become a top hound, 50% will have the talent to tree a coon, and the other 25% are culls.
A guy could accumulate quite a few house dogs that the family is attached to in his seach for a couple good ones, I hope your pup turns out great because i wouldnt want to be the guy that has to tell that cute little girl Ozzy's gotta go.
I think i will stick to the system where they have to show some talent in the timber first, its pretty hard to be objective about a dog once everyone is invested emotionally. Best of luck thats a sharp lookin pup, and i look forward to seeing where you are 2 years from now.

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Very interesting thread, and everything your pup learns will make life easier when you go to the woods.
Heres the hitch... even from the very best litters MAYBE 25% get what it takes genetically to become a top hound, 50% will have the talent to tree a coon, and the other 25% are culls.
A guy could accumulate quite a few house dogs that the family is attached to in his seach for a couple good ones, I hope your pup turns out great because i wouldnt want to be the guy that has to tell that cute little girl Ozzy's gotta go.
I think i will stick to the system where they have to show some talent in the timber first, its pretty hard to be objective about a dog once everyone is invested emotionally. Best of luck thats a sharp lookin pup, and i look forward to seeing where you are 2 years from now.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

culling (if it comes to that) is a hard lesson but an important one as well.

I still remember the first time I was allowed to pick the parents of a cross and raise and start that litter. (we didn't even try to sell pups back then) I think I was 12. it was freakin awesome I had a blast that summer and fall. then came time to evaluate what we had, and I knew some had to go and we had to pick the best to focus on. The hard part came when it was time to cull the ones who just didn't have it. the so so ones could be sold but those who just didn't have it were culls and I knew what that ment. as the breeder ( I picked the parents) I was responsible for culling them. that was the law of the kennel (and the old man who I learned from) I exhausted every effort to make each and every one a coondog but that's just not how it works even with the best program (we had some good ones for the day)

I hated it (culling) but I did it. To this day I think long and hard about letting a female hound back up to a male one. In fact I have only raised a handful of litters in all these years. 6 or 7 maybe.

that was the lesson from the start, though I had no idea at 12 .

__________________
when policemen ignore the law, then there isn't any law. there's just a fight for survival.

*billy jack

It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

Robert E. Lee

That's a good looking dude. Hope he makes a good one.

This in my opinion is a very commendable and promising intention. I hope to see you continue with it. There are obviously many different ways to train dogs successfully but to document a means to do so successfully and with improved outcome in a manner that can be used as a bench mark is another story. I enjoy reading threads like this. I am always studying the subject. I can assure you many others training for other purposes have successfully done the same thing. I hope it leads you to great success. It is the major key that I think is missing from our hobby. I have dedicated ten years of training to my training program I now use. I have had what I would consider some very good results and I would have to say without a doubt I have improved my training success. I can use it now to predict outcomes as well with pretty fair accuracy at fairly young ages. I am going to go out on a limb because I only have one example at this time but I believe that from what I have observed just recently it is a mistake to assume that Johns numbers are correct. I think we can increase the number of dogs that turn out to be average to above average dogs. I believe it is training more so than natural ability that is key. Due to a close friends recommendation I recently experimented with a new to me method approach in training that better addresses hunting drive. He was trying to make a point that with the FBI he uses different stimulation or rewards based on individual dogs likes. I was hesitant but I recently experimented with using in combination with my current more play driven training program by adding more significant food drive methods. They are well documented, lots of literature exists to point you on the road to doing this and soon I hope to add details of my experiences to my supplementary section of my website. My 2014 project on my website is my example. He was a slower learner and I came to find out it was more due to the fact that while his play drive was strong his food drive was also key to training him successfully in a more timely manner. I would have otherwise not put the time into him I did. One thing I would like to add is that you be sure and read a lot of references and pick and choose those that you find seem to be proven. Example I am not certain the context of the opinions of animal psychologists saying that most dogs are not ready to begin training for hunting in a methodical manner before 4 months old because all the references I have come across seem to contradict that.

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Randy Novak
Author
www.trainingthetreedog.com
Home of
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Thanks for the input guys!
My goal with this thread was to come up with a general guidelines for a new Hunter with the input of our members. As soon as this weather improves I hope to begin more hunting oriented training. Until then I mainly plan on focusing on social interactions with Ozzy and my pack. My other dogs have been doing a pretty good job of teaching him what is ok and what isn't, but sometimes I do need to step in to reinforce these points. My gut feeling is that these social interactions and teaching what is acceptable and behaviors and what isn't while they are playing will result in better more submissive manners around the tree.

It's hard to explain social manners in a thread but a lot of it has to do with teaching Ozzy respect for the others dogs.
Which means sharing toys and bones, respecting the older dogs when they choose not to share a toy, correcting any overly excited biting and face barking. I have also been doing some exercises with feeding times, making Ozzy wait and watch the other dogs eat, with out intruding on the other dogs personal space.
I am very much looking forward to this weather breaking and beginning some more hunting based exercises.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

one thing i have done with this last pup I am training now is letting him eat and drink out of bowls with dogs that will share food and water and twice ive let him chew on a hide with an older dog...ive owned a few decent hounds and most of them didnt care to share a coon on the ground, which i absolutely hate

ps...thats a really good lookin pup

Best thing you can teach any pup is the word "NO".
Once they learn that , the rest of their life they will be easy to correct at what ever they do that you don't like.

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