UKC Forums - Rules Of Fair Chase

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-- Rules Of Fair Chase (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928403016)

Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-03-2015 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Do people realize that most coons are not run up a tree? They are trailed to the tree they were already in when the dog struck the track. With the exception of a red hot race or a pop up.

joey you hit that rite. my dogs will tree! MAYBE KNOCK it out and walk a few steps and turn loose! and been many! many! times they would go 10 ft and tree! coon after coon. and these dogs are wide open track dogs. the difference in a lot of these dogs are dogs that has to have a track to tree! and a dog that has the brains to know a coon is sitting up. I want a coon dog that will tree lots! not one that will tree just one in a woods. I judge a dog by how many it can tree not by HOW MANY I SHOOT OUT. I leave more sitting than I kill. if a dog has to have a track to run to tree! you will be walking by coon a lot here. balance! balance! balance! BRAINS! been at this 50 + yrs. I have had some really bad dogs. jmo

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Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-03-2015 05:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
Let me throw just a little more gasoline on this fire, LOL. Being silent on trail has always been since the inception of competition coon hunting, a scratchable offense, (thus meaning) dogs that show this trait should be culled.

This also hold true for a dog that wants to fight at the tree. It has always been, and should always be, a scratchable offense. Dogs that want to fight at the tree should be scratched as well, and not included in ANY breeding program.

The same for any man that wants to argue and raise H@ll all night long, always have, and should always be, "scratched."

You see a dog that is loose mouthed gets punished, "to the fullest extent" of the UKC rules, (every) week in competition hunts, but a silent dog gets punished less than 10% of the time in competition hunts.

Babbling is punishable by minus, silent is punishable by scratch, so it seems to me from the way the rules were originally written, (and are still this way today) being silent, is the bigger fault than babbling, and therefore should be punished every time that trait rises up in competition.

My point is this, Please stop breeding for silent trailing coon catchers, as its making it harder and harder for me to find a balanced hound to breed my pot lickers to.

Now have at it boys and girls, you now know where I stand!!

Oh and by the way, I do have pretty thick skin, so I won't take to much of what you say to me or about me to heart. After all were all just a bunch of bored coon hunters, and this makes for good conversation.

Having said that, by late march, Im hoping my ole knee is good enough to keep up with some of you, so when the weather gets a little more consistently nice, you are welcome to bring Ole silent over and show me why you think I'm a little off my rocker, LOL

Good Hunting Guys and Gals!!

dave you are so far out in left field going to call a taxie to get you home. you said the loose mouth dog gets punnised more than silent dog. by ukc rules.WHAT THE HEL! do you think does all the big winning. not the silent dog!LOL

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 01-03-2015 06:07 PM:

Good Morning Carson, Did you have much success last night?
I went with my Nephew. I took my old dog and this new prospect I purchased At AO. Last night was only my 3rd trip to the woods all season, so yes I;m just a little bored, LOL. This pup turned 6 months old today. This was my pups first time being hauled to the woods. 1st drop he followed the old dogs about 300 yards and came back. 2nd drop he stayed with them as they rolled in about 5-600 yds, struck an old bad track and worked it and additional 600 yards or so. Garmin said they were treed at .89 miles. We drove around to the closest point and walked in. They were treed on an old den. didn't see a coon. That danged pup went all the way and was at the tree but no fur to be seen, LOL. Knee didn't feel to bad this morning after walking into the dogs about 500 yards or so. So I'm thinking the worst is behind me.

I'm like you, This danged retirement is way too much fun. Looking forward to getting hooked up with you. Take Care my friend!!

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Posted by Triple K Kennel on 01-03-2015 06:11 PM:

Re: Re: Funny......

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
and you'd be shakin' a cheaters hand...That's funnier...it's about following the rules to me and right now the UKC rule says scratch the silent dog, period.

I haven't seen a TRUE completely silent hound in years, most will open a few barks on the track, just enough to keep them from being scratched.....

These days, you could very possibly shake a cheaters hand even if he isn't packing a silent dog......

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Posted by Chuck Allen on 01-03-2015 06:25 PM:

rocket man i believe you are correct coon hunting is really a simple sport that has been corrupted by man. imho that mit economics professor was correct the American people taken as a whole are stupid, and according to a recent Pentagon study is the most serious national security threat our country has ever faced. Our collective national stupidity will destroy us long before ISIS does. JMHO rant over.

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Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-03-2015 06:35 PM:

took young male

went out after mid-nt! treed across river. well stupid me wore my old boots. and when I got bout half way across I felt ice cold water. went on to him it was a den. went back across got wetter and turn loose again he went several hundred yards and treed again dang it another den! but I seen that one. hole on side of tree he was up in side. left it get maybe next time on out side. by this time my feet are cold and now 3/4 mile from truck. Richard told me you had another pup. looking forward to bring my young male dog down and have some fun. we old guys can maybe find some easy spots in them there hills to hunt. good hunting!

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Posted by georgef072007 on 01-03-2015 08:33 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Funny......

quote:
Originally posted by Triple K Kennel
I haven't seen a TRUE completely silent hound in years, most will open a few barks on the track, just enough to keep them from being scratched.....
These days, you could very possibly shake a cheaters hand even if he isn't packing a silent dog......

I've seen quite a few stone cold silent dogs through the years, and pretty recently as well. Most will locate on a checked tree here and there so they say they are opening on track and get away with it. Knowing what the dog is doing and proving it are two different things so it goes on.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 01-04-2015 01:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Who were these founding fathers and where are these rules of fair chase written? Lol.
In reality the vast majority of coonhunters a hundred years ago followed silent trailing dogs, the objective was to put food on the table as efficently as possible.
All the registries reward the open trailer with strike points which give them the advantage, that in itself prevents people for the most part from competing with a silent dog. $kc. has no rule against competing with a silent dog and they are still rare.
Personally i have always felt that anyone with a dog and an entry fee should be able to show up and compete, after all at its heart its a coon treeing contest so turn em loose and let the chips fall where they may.
All the silent dog rule does is controll the "style" of dog a man hunts, which is redundent because the point system already does this.
The strike point system as it is now doesnt any longer reward the harder hunting dog as it was intended because guys have bred up dogs that open when they smell dirt so how valuable should those points be? And if its OK to eliminate the silent dog shouldnt it also be acceptable to eliminate the loose mouth dog by removing their reward.
Strike em all for 50 and the babblers would dissapear pretty quick because they sure are annoying to be in the woods with.

Nailed it

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Posted by groworg1 on 01-04-2015 02:35 PM:

john your all wet on the hundred years ago most were silent where did you come up with this fact ? ever seen a silent fox hound did they watch them run a fox around the hill no they listened and figured where to get to get a shot as dog ran fox by them all coon hound breeds except the plott originated from fox hounds fact !

Posted by john Duemmer on 01-04-2015 02:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
john your all wet on the hundred years ago most were silent where did you come up with this fact ? ever seen a silent fox hound did they watch them run a fox around the hill no they listened and figured where to get to get a shot as dog ran fox by them all coon hound breeds except the plott originated from fox hounds fact !

I was refering strictly to tree dogs, most were a cur dog of sorts, farm shepard crosses, maybe a little hound mixed in. Farm dog by day, meat dog by night, most were silent trailers. The coondog "breeds" you refer to have not been around that long, and most people in this country around the turn of the century never laid eyes on a purebred anything.

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Posted by jackbob42 on 01-04-2015 05:09 PM:

The rules weren't written for dogs from 100 years ago , so why are they even being brought up?

If you don't like the rules , start your own registry and write your own rules.

That's the trouble with most folks , instead of doing something for themselves , they want to sit back and tell someone else how to do it ! LOL

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Posted by john Duemmer on 01-04-2015 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42
The rules weren't written for dogs from 100 years ago , so why are they even being brought up?

If you don't like the rules , start your own registry and write your own rules.

That's the trouble with most folks , instead of doing something for themselves , they want to sit back and tell someone else how to do it ! LOL

Maybe your reading comprehension skills are just poor, my point from the beginning is that i feel a guy should be able to hunt any style dog that suits him.
Maybe you just dont understand the rule system.. They are changed and refined every couple years and the changes are voted on by the breed representives. They are not written by the registry.
The rules are important, they determin to a great extent which dogs become the breeding stock for future generations. (To put it simply dogs that fit the scorecard win and people breed to the winners). Being unable to consider changes that might benefit the sport will only hurt the sport.

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Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-04-2015 06:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Maybe your reading comprehension skills are just poor, my point from the beginning is that i feel a guy should be able to hunt any style dog that suits him.
Maybe you just dont understand the rule system.. They are changed and refined every couple years and the changes are voted on by the breed representives. They are not written by the registry.
The rules are important, they determin to a great extent which dogs become the breeding stock for future generations. (To put it simply dogs that fit the scorecard win and people breed to the winners). Being unable to consider changes that might benefit the sport will only hurt the sport.

JOHN this does make sence and all this time I thout you were just rambling on. good point! jmo

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Posted by jackbob42 on 01-04-2015 11:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Maybe your reading comprehension skills are just poor, my point from the beginning is that i feel a guy should be able to hunt any style dog that suits him.
Maybe you just dont understand the rule system..

Maybe you don't understand........
That rule has been complained about for years and hasn't been changed yet !
So , instead of complaining and hoping someone else will change it , do it yourself !

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Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-05-2015 04:36 PM:

hey rocketman my friend! you hunt last nt. LOL

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 01-05-2015 05:31 PM:

No Buddy I did not. I have now come down with this bronchial stuff. Throat is burning up, cannot breath etc.

Went to doc yesterday and got some get well meds. Said I didn't have the flu so guess thats a good thing. Think I will stay in till the weather breaks in about a week or so.
Looks like next sunday them temp will again creep above freezing. I go Friday to Columbus to get my knee brace fitted, them I hope I will be ready to start tromping the woods. It was a good night, hope you had a great time!!

Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-05-2015 06:25 PM:

cold

it was like 10 % here this morn. not get out in this stuff. I retired after 37 yrs working in this kind crap. now I will pick my days when to get out in it. throw another log on fire. LOL

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 01-05-2015 07:53 PM:

Wow, I didn't realize it was that cold up your way last night. It stayed above freezing here till after midnight, then the temp took the plunge down to about 20. It has only warmed up to about 25/26 all day long. So yes, I agree, we can now just sit back and let the temp come our way. LOL

Posted by CHEWBACH on 01-05-2015 08:05 PM:

warm

the first warm up we get! coming down and go hunt! if its in middle of nt. I will awaken you. LOL. pm me your address if you would and I can go to map quest. never mind its on your post.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 01-05-2015 09:49 PM:

Sounds Good my friend, see you soon.

Posted by sleepy head on 10-03-2015 02:29 PM:

Re: Rules Of Fair Chase

quote:
Originally posted by Rocketman55
,Anybody ever hear of this term? Especially as it relates to competition coon hunting? I'm thinking this term was included in the original bylaws of registries that sanctioned competition coon hunting events, more than 70 years ago.

What does the rules of fair chase mean to you the (A) competition hunter, and (B) the pleasure hunter??

It seems to me that these rules were written by the Founding Fathers of Competition Coon Hunting.

I'm of the opinion that these rules were providing an outline as to how a dog was to give a (SPORTING CHANCE) to a coon that a dog was trying to catch.

How was a dog supposed to do that you may ask??
(Answer)- By opening on the trail so that the coon had a sporting chance to get away.

Do you consider yourself a sportsman of coon hunting or a slayer of coon??

You can slaughter more coon if you hunt them with a silent trailing dog, anybody that has hunted for ten years or more already know that, but is that the (SPORTING) thing to do??

Are you a coon hunter that enjoys the SPORT of coon hunting, and listening to a hound that tells the coon it is on its trail, and still has the ability to run that coon so hard it has to climb a tree, or are you a coon hunter that enjoys the harvest of many, many coon, and it does not matter to you how the dog gets the job done, so long as the bottom line is, there is a coon up that tree when you get there.

Why all these stupid questions you may ask?? Well it is my opinion that where you stand as a coon hunter may actually tells us where you stand within the tolerance of the UKC rules that apply to the silent trailing hound.

Some on this forum want to eliminate strike points, and give every dog that shows up at an event 50 points for having the luxury to free cast your dog, every time you free cast your dog. Some feel that any dog that open on one out of 5 tracks is not SILENT, But maybe a little tight on the ground.

I feel the (Rules of Fair Chase) are as important to the integrity of competition coon hunting, as the 2nd amendment is to those of us that feel it is our constitutional right to own a firearm and have it in our home. Our country was founded on the basic principles of the 2nd amendment and nobody should be messing with that language, Just as the Rules of Fair Chase were written by our founding fathers of competition coon hunting, and they should be sacred as well. If you don't want to play by the rules of our founding fathers, and especially a rule that is punishable by scratch, you should maybe look else ware for an organization that more so meets your values.

I like a coon treeing machine as much as the next guy, but there real challenge is to breed one that is open on the ground and still has the ability to put a high percentage of tracks on the outside of the tree for all to see!!

Good Hunting to All!!

This is something I've never heard of before, the idea that free casting a silent trailer into the timber to get after some coon is somehow poor sportsmanship is stupid and dangerous no matter if your pleasure hunting or competition hunting. Imo

Posted by yadkintar on 10-03-2015 02:41 PM:

Some of these ( high end strike dogs ) will make a honest strike dog look silent jmo.

Posted by Turman_Creek on 10-03-2015 03:22 PM:

FAIR CHASE LOLOLOLOLOL

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Posted by msinc on 10-03-2015 04:54 PM:

I respect many of the guys that posted on this thread and for the life of me I just cant wrap my head around the chronic constant complaining about this whole "should be able to hunt the style you want" thing.
You guys are aware that there is absolutely nothing, nothing at all in this great country of ours that prevents you from starting the SKC {Silent Kennel Club.} You can own it, you can make all the rules including the hunt what you want rule. You can schedule all the hunts, and set the fees...you can even have a magazine with the picture of the world champion silent coondog every year. And the best part about all this is you can start today...right this second if you are really serious. This seems to make more sense to me, instead of imposing a rule that was long ago decided to be unwanted.
Just like I tell the folks that rent from me that complain about the brand new house they are living in....when it gets to the point you just cant stand it, I will not be upset that you are leaving!!!!! I am pretty sure UKC wont worry to much either.

Edit: Not because they don't want to do business with anyone, or are hoping you will just go away, but because they have rules in place to try and please the majority...and they know the SKC if it ever happens at all will very quickly fail.

Posted by sleepy head on 10-03-2015 05:34 PM:

I have a couple of tight mouth dogs some nights very tight, if you want to scratch them per the rules, fine, but don't try and tell me its unsportsmanlike for to enter them in a hunt, heck the rules are stacked against them. For damb sure don't tell me its wrong to hunt them for pleasure. Would like to see the rule that says you can't enter tight mouth dogs

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