UKC Forums - Elephants and Coondogs

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-- Elephants and Coondogs (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928401153)

Posted by markknepp on 12-21-2014 01:51 AM:

I like the engine and transmission analogy. I would add that the engine and transmission have to match for it to work. An car transmission won't hold up with a big Diesel engine and a semi transmission is to much for the car engine to pull.

Imo that's why different people are successful with different lines of dogs. It's not a one size fits all kinda deal.

Posted by chuck west on 12-21-2014 02:17 AM:

Darn good read Bruce and it pretty much sums up the natural way its supposed to go , all instinctive . Then you bring in the man / trainer and the bond that is developed between them . Training techniques vary from trainer to trainer , but this I will say a cool head and a steady even approach on training will gain more than hot headed heavy handed training ,,,jmo. Thanks

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-21-2014 12:18 PM:

Thanks for the good read Bruce! To me that natural ability to tree coons, or say just have a plain knack for treeing coons, that "it" factor for a lack of better terms, should be on the top of breeders list of goals and traits. How they go about doing it may differ from breeder to breeder, or region to region,but at the end of the day this should be the top priority, and common goal.

Great discussion guys!

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Posted by on 12-21-2014 03:40 PM:

blackflagginit from reading what John D has wrote on here over the years I would say your are correct in your statement about him. If there wasn't so many miles between us and I hunted Black dogs I would be on the waiting list for a nice puppy.

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-21-2014 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by markknepp
I like the engine and transmission analogy. I would add that the engine and transmission have to match for it to work. An car transmission won't hold up with a big Diesel engine and a semi transmission is to much for the car engine to pull.

Imo that's why different people are successful with different lines of dogs. It's not a one size fits all kinda deal.

Posted by on 12-21-2014 04:15 PM:

Lets move over into the training of these hounds. This will show why Genetics perhaps is more important now than it was many years ago.

20, 30 or forty years ago how did Dad or Grandpa train their next coonhound. They didn't!! They let Ole Blue or Ole Red train their pup. In other words they put it out there with a seasoned coonhound and let the pup learn from them. They gave the pup a couple seasons which generally added up to two years and then decided if it was a keeper or not.

Now a days we expect to be winning Trucks with two year old hounds. Grandpa was just happy to see it at the tree when he got there.
Kind of like dinner. Grandma use to cook all day and now my wife pushes a microwave button and I am eating in 5 minutes. We expect different things today than we did back when.

There is a big push (because of value) on to hunt pups by themselves and get them treeing asap. Well there has to be some foundation for that to successfully happen which is Genetic.

Things are a lot different today than they were back in Grand Pa's day. Many today don't have history to draw from. When I was thinking about the analogy of the Elephants I asked a good friend and young man if he ever saw an Elephant stand on it's head. He said "What". I asked him if he ever saw Elephants walk tail to trunk. He said "What". Never saw any of that. I asked him if he had ever seen Elephants in a Circus and he said "What is a Circus".
I went to the Circus back in the day. I saw Elephants standing on their heads. I saw Elephants running circles around the ring tail to trunk. I asked how did they train them to do that. I was told it took a good trainer to make them stand on their head but the running in circles with the trunks hooked to the tail of the Elephant in front came natural. Just have to give them a circle to run in and train them to stay in it. That is what I look for in my coonhound pups. The things I want them to do comes naturally, I just give them a circle to run in and train them to stay in that circle!! Makes my life easier and more enjoyable!! And it doesn't take two years to figure out if one didn't get the right genetics!! Maybe two months. I would say one month but that is only if you hunt four to five nights a week.

Posted by HOBO on 12-21-2014 07:42 PM:

Great post Bruce!

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Posted by on 12-21-2014 08:15 PM:

HOBO I watch the videos of your pups. You know the secret, you have been to the Circus lol

Posted by HOBO on 12-22-2014 02:29 AM:

I'm more like the blind hog..... I find an acorn every now and then....

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-22-2014 06:34 AM:

Mr. Conkey we still use "Ol Red" here he has started more pups than I can count . We turn em' loose with him as little ones and their natural instincts kick in and before you know it they are running and treeing on their own in the woods here at the house , it is then that the pup is ready for the real hunting to begin . Ol Red is a fast worker these days , it doesn't take him 2yrs to start a pup lol .

Nice post , enjoyed the analogy .

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Posted by blackflagginit on 12-22-2014 12:51 PM:

I never hunt a pup with anything until I consider its basic training phase complete. IE every thing nailed down solid and nothing left to do but the constant tweaking here and there (I never quit learning and expect the same from my dogs)

IMO the worst term in the history of hounds is "pup trainer". the trainer should never be another hound unless you are raising PACK dogs. foxhounds and beagles maybe idk.

monkey see monkey do might work fine for them, but it has no place in tree dogs. the "old timers" used it because they didn't know any better.

Back not so long ago our hounds were registered as "fox and coon" hounds. Pups were started and the ones who would rather run went to fox packs the rare one once in awhile that would rather tree was singled out to make coon hounds.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 12-22-2014 01:03 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce M. Conkey
blackflagginit from reading what John D has wrote on here over the years I would say your are correct in your statement about him. If there wasn't so many miles between us and I hunted Black dogs I would be on the waiting list for a nice puppy.

the first time I remember meeting john I drew him in a hunt at Clinton MO..........idk somewhere in the early 90s...91,92 maybe. I was hunting a dog named Pride, one of only 2 males I have ever fed.

Over the years I have drawn him a couple more times, and seen and talked to him at hunts lots more than that. We don't agree on everything, but one thing we DO agree on is never making excuses for the dog we are packing.

He is one of the few I have met over these years, I would send my dog out with and say "just tell me how he scored when ya get back" and I would never question that scorecard win, lose, or draw.

Posted by pamjohnson on 12-22-2014 06:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit

IMO the worst term in the history of hounds is "pup trainer". the trainer should never be another hound unless you are raising PACK dogs. foxhounds and beagles maybe idk.

monkey see monkey do might work fine for them, but it has no place in tree dogs. the "old timers" used it because they didn't know any better.

sounds like an insult too anyone who doesn't train your way.

maybe you are correct or maybe- naa!! you have to be right.

monkey c monkey do! lol!

Posted by blackflagginit on 12-26-2014 05:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by pamjohnson
sounds like an insult too anyone who doesn't train your way.

It was. A direct one too.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 12-26-2014 06:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
It was. A direct one too.

I hope this wasn't directed at me , I can assure you my dogs are not pack dogs . If it was come on down and hunt we are not far apart or I come come to you .

Posted by blackflagginit on 12-26-2014 04:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
I hope this wasn't directed at me , I can assure you my dogs are not pack dogs . If it was come on down and hunt we are not far apart or I come come to you .

No, it wasn't directed at any 1 person in particular. Just towards the "pup trainer/monkey see" training method in general.

Posted by toe cutter on 12-26-2014 04:54 PM:

I have taken litters of 6 week old pups and fed them cooked hot dog and bacon pieces as treats for a few days. then taken the bowl of treats and hid it. the pups will track, wind and then tree bark when they locate the treats and cant reach them. no one taught or trained them to do it. they do it because they were exposed to them enough to make them want the treats bad enough to do it.
you or another dog do not "train" pups to track or tree. it only exposes the pups to coon to make them want them.
as far as making a dog a pack dog or making it a loner, its in the breeding. you aint gonna change it.
the line I hunt have always been get off alone type dogs for over 30 yrs now. I have seen several people take my pups and run them in bear packs from day one. then they finally realize that I was right and the dog aint gonna pack.
anything predominantly bred into a dog you will not change. telling me you can is no different then telling me you can shock , whip or train a walker dog to be blue coated like a blue dog or red colored like a red bone.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 12-26-2014 09:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by toe cutter
I have taken litters of 6 week old pups and fed them cooked hot dog and bacon pieces as treats for a few days. then taken the bowl of treats and hid it. the pups will track, wind and then tree bark when they locate the treats and cant reach them. no one taught or trained them to do it. they do it because they were exposed to them enough to make them want the treats bad enough to do it.
you or another dog do not "train" pups to track or tree. it only exposes the pups to coon to make them want them.
as far as making a dog a pack dog or making it a loner, its in the breeding. you aint gonna change it.
the line I hunt have always been get off alone type dogs for over 30 yrs now. I have seen several people take my pups and run them in bear packs from day one. then they finally realize that I was right and the dog aint gonna pack.
anything predominantly bred into a dog you will not change. telling me you can is no different then telling me you can shock , whip or train a walker dog to be blue coated like a blue dog or red colored like a red bone.

my opposition to "pup trainers" has nothing to do with loner vrs me too dogs. it has to do with a couple of things bigger than that. things like;

A) picking up or being affected by bad habits the "pup trainer" may or may not have ( trash, aggression, and a lot of other things come to mind here)

B) confidence. a pup who is trained alone simply has more confidence in itself and what it is doing is right. In my experience pups trained with or by another dog tend to second guess themselves more, at least in the early stages.

C) the ability to see EXACTLY what the pups natural talents and abilities are. (without having to guess rather he was just wired that way or if it was something he learned) both good and bad.

D) I am able to pick out the "naturals" quicker, and by the same token weed out those who are not without wasting too much time on them.

the truth is I don't remove the "pup trainer" I BECOME the pup trainer. and that opens up a lot of doors not avalible if im using another dog to do that job instead.

doesn't mean my way is the right way, or even the only way. Just means that's the only way I personally will do it. I have seen and tried the other method when I was younger and didn't know any better, and I just have no use for it.

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