UKC Forums - Allen/UKC/Jim

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Posted by buck brush on 12-07-2014 09:33 PM:

have any of you ever hunted in a hunt before? I sure would be a hoot drawing some of you.

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Posted by buck brush on 12-07-2014 09:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't need any help...happy to answer this.
Two dog cast, A and B are struck in for 100 {1st} and 75 {2nd}in that order. Dog B quits and receives minus points. He then goes back in and is struck again...remember, we only have one set of strike points the track has been kept open. He goes back in for 50. Why 50??? Because two dogs have already been struck. 1st and 2nd have been used. Only 3rd and 4th remain, so he gets 3rd strike because it was the third time a dog has been struck. If he quits again, or lets say the A dog quits, you don't move the dog that was struck third all the way up to first and give the dog that was struck on the same track the fourth time a second. Eventually you get down to where only 4th strike is left if they don't minus out.
The biggest thing about all this is that you are cheating other casts when you allow more points to be counted than are available to receive.

where do you see this rule. when this dog B comes in and is MIN. his strike points are open again if he goes back in and strikes again he is struck for 75.

Posted by msinc on 12-07-2014 10:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by buck brush
where do you see this rule. when this dog B comes in and is MIN. his strike points are open again if he goes back in and strikes again he is struck for 75.

Go back and read my first post...page 21 and 22 of "The Advisor"...cant believe no one has a copy of this book. This comes up on here about every six months. Last time I think it was happening somewhere in southern West Virginia.

I'd like to ask a few questions of you fellas that believe in opening points back up...{if you'll permit me}...Have any of you actually done this, scored your or someone else's dog this way in a UKC licensed hunt??? How many of you scored your own dogs this way and got a win??? When was the last time you did it this way??? Care to name the club and dates???

Posted by Frank M on 12-07-2014 10:35 PM:

MSINC
Just a question for you. Why do you want to know the club and dates? Nothing can be done to change a score card 30 minutes after deadline UNLESS a formal complaint has been filed. So knowing the club and dates at this time would do you no good.

Personally I don't own an advisor......but going by the rules in the rule book. Once a position is scored it becomes open except you can't strike back in over a dog working a track except rule 2C.

Here's another unrelated question for you 3 dogs are treed (4 dog cast) you score the tree......coon seen so plused up. As your walking away before dogs are turned loose the handler of dog D trees his dog. Does he have to hold his tree for 5 minutes before going to it? To me this answer is just as simple as my original question on this post.

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Posted by markknepp on 12-07-2014 10:36 PM:

Once the points have been minused does that not count as them being scored?

Posted by runnin rebels on 12-07-2014 10:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by markknepp
Once the points have been minused does that not count as them being scored?

according to everyone who knows the rules it does, but not according to msinc

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Posted by msinc on 12-07-2014 10:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by markknepp
Once the points have been minused does that not count as them being scored?

Before we get into a new scenario let me answer this one. One dog receiving minus points on track does not close the track when other dogs are running. Your direct answer is yes and no. The track is still open and has not been closed {scored} but second strike has in a sense been scored and closed. It is now not available. You do not minus a dog previously struck and then reopen that position, there is only one {1} a single set of strike points per track. They do not reset until that track is finished {scored}.
Let me say it another way two dogs strike and go off to the north...they have been running for 15 minutes. The remaining two dogs strike in a different area on an obviously different track and go dead south...do you guys also give them 100 and 75 ???? If not, why not???

Posted by buck brush on 12-07-2014 10:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Go back and read my first post...page 21 and 22 of "The Advisor"...cant believe no one has a copy of this book. This comes up on here about every six months. Last time I think it was happening somewhere in southern West Virginia.

I'd like to ask a few questions of you fellas that believe in opening points back up...{if you'll permit me}...Have any of you actually done this, scored your or someone else's dog this way in a UKC licensed hunt??? How many of you scored your own dogs this way and got a win??? When was the last time you did it this way??? Care to name the club and dates???

what does page 21 and 22 say??? all I know is once strike points are MIN. and another dog is struck it goes in for next a valuable he just can not be struck in over another dog.

Posted by JiM on 12-07-2014 11:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I don't need any help...happy to answer this.
Two dog cast, A and B are struck in for 100 {1st} and 75 {2nd}in that order. Dog B quits and receives minus points. He then goes back in and is struck again...remember, we only have one set of strike points the track has been kept open. He goes back in for 50. Why 50??? Because two dogs have already been struck. 1st and 2nd have been used. Only 3rd and 4th remain, so he gets 3rd strike because it was the third time a dog has been struck. If he quits again, or lets say the A dog quits, you don't move the dog that was struck third all the way up to first and give the dog that was struck on the same track the fourth time a second. Eventually you get down to where only 4th strike is left if they don't minus out.
The biggest thing about all this is that you are cheating other casts when you allow more points to be counted than are available to receive.

Is this a UKC rule question or a PKC rule question? Because when you say "remember, we only have one set of strike points".....that is a PKC rule. In PKC, once a strike position is used, it is not available again until a new strike is open. But in UKC, once a strike position is vacated "minused", it becomes available again.
This is a UKC forum, I will use UKC rules here.

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Posted by Frank M on 12-07-2014 11:04 PM:

Your correct in that only 1 set of strike points. But a track doesn't have to be scored for a position to be scored!

Let me put it this way for you.
Turn dogs loose 2 dogs go right and 2 dogs go left. Dogs that went left come back and get minused (for simple math lets say the had 50,25). Now what point value does the first dog to open receive?

Posted by Frank M on 12-07-2014 11:07 PM:

Jim
This question was referring to UKC rules. Thank you for your interpitaton of this rule.

Posted by buck brush on 12-07-2014 11:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Is this a UKC rule question or a PKC rule question? Because when you say "remember, we only have one set of strike points".....that is a PKC rule. In PKC, once a strike position is used, it is not available again until a new strike is open. But in UKC, once a strike position is vacated "minused", it becomes available again.
This is a UKC forum, I will use UKC rules here.

read rule 4 on the back of the score card once a position has been scored it comes available again just can not go over another, I would not have a adviser our there in the woods with me.( AGAIN JIM IS RIGHT)
and before you throw it in that you can move a dog up on the tree like was asked earlier you can only do that if they are split if a dog leaves a tree the points stay the same if all dogs was on the same tree.

Jim how you doing????

Posted by jackbob42 on 12-07-2014 11:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Is this a UKC rule question or a PKC rule question? Because when you say "remember, we only have one set of strike points".....that is a PKC rule. In PKC, once a strike position is used, it is not available again until a new strike is open. But in UKC, once a strike position is vacated "minused", it becomes available again.
This is a UKC forum, I will use UKC rules here.

I'd like to think that Jim just straightened him out. LOL

I'm not really a nite hunter , but all I've ever read in UKC rules were positions being scored , nothing about the tracks being scored as a whole ! LOL

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Posted by groworg1 on 12-07-2014 11:21 PM:

I like how your name is at the top allen/ukc/jim yet you have not answered the original question so I'll try if both dogs in question are struck in at the same time its 62.5 split its that simple one is going to get a minus its a bad break for dog b

Posted by JiM on 12-07-2014 11:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
I like how your name is at the top allen/ukc/jim yet you have not answered the original question so I'll try if both dogs in question are struck in at the same time its 62.5 split its that simple one is going to get a minus its a bad break for dog b

I DONT like how my name is at the top Allen/UKC/jim because I'm not a part of Allen or UKC therefor there is no reason to link me with them.
The reason I didn't answer the original question is because I didn't know the answer. But I do know that "one set of strike points" is a PKC term. In PKC, dogs strike back for 25. In UKC, they strike back for next available position.
I also know that when one dog barks, two dogs cannot go on the card for a position to be scored.

Posted by msinc on 12-07-2014 11:33 PM:

Let me try this a different way...Rule 2{D} "If a dog is turned in on a trail that is being worked it gets the next available position. A dog cannot be struck in over a position that is being held {except 2{C}}MULTIPLE DOGS MAY OCCUPY 4TH POSITION. Once a position has been scored it becomes available again."

Now, why or how could multiple dogs occupy 4th strike if every time one was minused you moved the rest up???

Posted by john Duemmer on 12-07-2014 11:37 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by groworg1
I like how your name is at the top allen/ukc/jim yet you have not answered the original question so I'll try if both dogs in question are struck in at the same time its 62.5 split its that simple one is going to get a minus its a bad break for dog b [/QUOTE

If you agree that one dog deserves minus and one has an honest second strike..... why would you split points?
one dog deserves 75 minus and one should be on the card for 75.
Either one handler will fess up and say he called the wrong dog or the judge needs to make the call.

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Posted by JiM on 12-07-2014 11:39 PM:

They don't move them up because that position is not available. Why? Because you have a dog(s) struck below that position making if no longer available. However, if no dogs are struck for positions below the minused position, THEN that position is open. Understand?

Posted by john Duemmer on 12-07-2014 11:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Let me try this a different way...Rule 2{D} "If a dog is turned in on a trail that is being worked it gets the next available position. A dog cannot be struck in over a position that is being held {except 2{C}}MULTIPLE DOGS MAY OCCUPY 4TH POSITION. Once a position has been scored it becomes available again."

Now, why or how could multiple dogs occupy 4th strike if every time one was minused you moved the rest up???

You can try it 50 different ways and you will still be wrong.. read the last sentence in the rule you quoted. once a dog is minused that position is considered scored and becomes available again.

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Posted by msinc on 12-07-2014 11:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Is this a UKC rule question or a PKC rule question? Because when you say "remember, we only have one set of strike points".....that is a PKC rule. In PKC, once a strike position is used, it is not available again until a new strike is open. But in UKC, once a strike position is vacated "minused", it becomes available again.
This is a UKC forum, I will use UKC rules here.

Make no mistake about it, UKC has one set and one set only of strike points. Dogs do not advance in points over another just because he was minused. There are four strike positions, when all four have been used then only 25 for fourth remains available. I will challenge all you to show me the rule that says to keep advancing strike {or tree for that matter} points. Simple question is how can you have two second strikes when there is only one per track???

Posted by msinc on 12-07-2014 11:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
You can try it 50 different ways and you will still be wrong.. read the last sentence in the rule you quoted. once a dog is minused that position is considered scored and becomes available again.

Then tell us how multiple dogs can occupy 4th strike...

Also, you need to read the last sentence I quoted...it doesn't say or read anything like the way you wrote it above.

Posted by JiM on 12-07-2014 11:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Make no mistake about it, UKC has one set and one set only of strike points. Dogs do not advance in points over another just because he was minused. There are four strike positions, when all four have been used then only 25 for fourth remains available. I will challenge all you to show me the rule that says to keep advancing strike {or tree for that matter} points. Simple question is how can you have two second strikes when there is only one per track???

Ok, you're just not comprehending this and I learned a long time ago to just let them have it their way when it gets to this point. On a cast, I can handle you but not in here.

Posted by john Duemmer on 12-07-2014 11:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Make no mistake about it, UKC has one set and one set only of strike points. Dogs do not advance in points over another just because he was minused. There are four strike positions, when all four have been used then only 25 for fourth remains available. I will challenge all you to show me the rule that says to keep advancing strike {or tree for that matter} points. Simple question is how can you have two second strikes when there is only one per track???

You dont have two second strikes you have one wrong call that will be minused 75 and you have one second strike that will remain on the card for 75.

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Posted by runnin rebels on 12-07-2014 11:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Then tell us how multiple dogs can occupy 4th strike...

2(c)). Multiple dogs may occupy fourth position.

because it is plainly written on the back of the card

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Posted by runnin rebels on 12-07-2014 11:51 PM:

you are not holding a strike position once it is minused

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