UKC Forums - Dogs hopping tracks?

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Posted by POTOMAC on 12-03-2014 01:51 AM:

Why do some dogs consistantly tree the last coon to climb??????

Posted by buck brush on 12-03-2014 02:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
Why do some dogs consistantly tree the last coon to climb??????

one of two things 1. that was the coon it was trailing
2. it would rather run then tree

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Posted by Mike Van Dusen on 12-03-2014 03:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
Why do some dogs consistantly tree the last coon to climb??????

Some dogs like to be to theirselves,so if they are trailing with dogs,if they don't tree first, they will trail on until they end up split to them selves.
I have a female that is that way,she will split off from dogs,I have seen her track rite by dogs treed,and go on and get treed, and she will have the meat.She is just that way,I love when she finds that coon that goes on, and she figures them out.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-03-2014 04:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
Why do some dogs consistantly tree the last coon to climb??????

Theres a guy out near shippensburg that hunts a plott dog, said hes seen her do that multiple times. Said he's been with his buddies walker dog, where the sow put her kittens up a tree, and the walker dog trees them while his plott dog goes on to tree the sow.

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Posted by POTOMAC on 12-03-2014 04:46 AM:

I have seen a couple older females and have one now and actually it's the daughter of my old female and gopher and her mother consistantly tree the sow and that's alone with out any other dogs !!!!! So he only thing I can figure is that coon smells stronger are they smell the same and after she puts kittens up these type dog circle checking tree and smell where a coon went on and assumed they tapped ??? Don't know for sure but was just adding to previous posts about coon smell !! Abviously boars are stinking a lot more most the time ! So that def tends to the theory that all coons smell different and maybe the sow is just a stronger smell ????? Remember the sayings natures way of protecting the little ones ??????? Don't know for sure but it opens up some different thought !!!

Posted by Fisher13 on 12-03-2014 08:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
I have seen a couple older females and have one now and actually it's the daughter of my old female and gopher and her mother consistantly tree the sow and that's alone with out any other dogs !!!!! So he only thing I can figure is that coon smells stronger are they smell the same and after she puts kittens up these type dog circle checking tree and smell where a coon went on and assumed they tapped ??? Don't know for sure but was just adding to previous posts about coon smell !! Abviously boars are stinking a lot more most the time ! So that def tends to the theory that all coons smell different and maybe the sow is just a stronger smell ????? Remember the sayings natures way of protecting the little ones ??????? Don't know for sure but it opens up some different thought !!!

I think in poor scent conditions, a lone kitten can be tough to tree.

I had a coon patterned last year, in an area of pretty thin coon. It was some bigger woods, so the only time I would hunt there was to drop 2 dogs. For a month or so, they would strike in the same area, one would tree in the same tree and the other would always continue on in deep and get treed on a den. I never knew if there were 2 coons there or one. However it would always be the same 2 trees, but I never knew which dog would get treed on the coon and which would get treed on the den. But these particular 2 dogs would always split. I would like to believe that there were 2 coons, and they knew it and were splitting up to get them both treed. So I started drop them by themselves on that coon, both dogs dropped by themselves would tree and lock down on the first tree, and have the coon. Neither went on to the second tree, the one with the den.

However after much thought,knowing it was thin coon, and hearing the dogs running the track, it would seem the track was always hot to the first tree with the coon, then after that tree the track would start to die off, and sometimes they were struggling to run the track by the time the dog reached the den. So I believe what was happening was that every night the coon got down, and would take the same trail,down to the area to the feed. When my truck would pull up and i would begin to make a racket unloading, the coon would head back towards the trail he used and climb this same tree. The dogs would track to the tree, and due to the fact of the coon using the same trail over and over it would often fool the other dog into thinking he could go get his own coon.

Both dogs were from much different blood lines, one would drift the other straddled one was medium to cold nosed the other was drifting type dog,but either could go on to what I believe was backtracking.

Not sure I gathered much from this experience, it pretty much left me perplexed, but I did learn that coon can in certain times of the year use a game trail to travel from point a to point b and they can be patterned.

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Posted by POTOMAC on 12-03-2014 09:04 PM:

Come on down here Garreth and try to pattern my coon here !!!!lol I bet everything you have done there consistantley will go straight out the window and you will leave scratching your head!!!! Lol

Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-03-2014 09:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
Thanks for all your replies guys, and thanks Dave you confirmed my suspicions, does it bother you that he switches coon? Do you feel he sometimes gets deeper then needed because of it? Does this help you win at all, by getting split more?

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because it really depends on your personal preference and the terrain you're hunting in. And I keep changing the terrain I hunt in! And... no matter how he's doing it, Boom will always get treed by himself, but that's a different story!

Some people's response that if a dog switches tracks, then it's going to be a long night, is confusing to me. But I am making some assumptions... I'm not saying a dog is "quitting" a track and then going and looking for another one, I'm saying two coon crossed paths, and the dog switched over to another coon. I'm also assuming that a dog would be inclined to switch to a hotter track, and therefore likely get treed sooner.

And to answer your question, if it bothers me... no, as I don't see it as a fault. I see him running with his nose off the ground, because he can, and if two trails of coon scent come into close proximity, and he "switches" to a hotter one, because his goal is not treeing that coon, but rather A coon, then I'm fine with that. And in certain terrain, this trait helps him move a track better.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-03-2014 09:42 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
Come on down here Garreth and try to pattern my coon here !!!!lol I bet everything you have done there consistantley will go straight out the window and you will leave scratching your head!!!! Lol

I don't have all my coon pattern!! Probably not even a 1/3 of them!!! However this particular one I'm convinced had a certain routine. I think a lot of trappers will agree with me on this one.

Next time you have a finished dog out note where they get struck and treed. Go back the next at the exact same time and drop your pup right on top of where your broke dog got struck. More times then not, i bet you will strike that coon.

However like you said this time of year it seems to fall apart. Less food, I think they wonder more, or are forced to relocate due to food sources drying up.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-03-2014 09:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because it really depends on your personal preference and the terrain you're hunting in. And I keep changing the terrain I hunt in! And... no matter how he's doing it, Boom will always get treed by himself, but that's a different story!

Some people's response that if a dog switches tracks, then it's going to be a long night, is confusing to me. But I am making some assumptions... I'm not saying a dog is "quitting" a track and then going and looking for another one, I'm saying two coon crossed paths, and the dog switched over to another coon. I'm also assuming that a dog would be inclined to switch to a hotter track, and therefore likely get treed sooner.

And to answer your question, if it bothers me... no, as I don't see it as a fault. I see him running with his nose off the ground, because he can, and if two trails of coon scent come into close proximity, and he "switches" to a hotter one, because his goal is not treeing that coon, but rather A coon, then I'm fine with that. And in certain terrain, this trait helps him move a track better.

That makes sense Dave Thanks!!!

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Posted by POTOMAC on 12-03-2014 09:59 PM:

I'm Just given you a hard time your exactly right I can pretty much tell you where there gonna strike and tree for the most if coon are moving !! I had one across the road years ago that coon would teach dogs more tricks and would always run 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile and when I say run I mean run in some stuff a rabbit would have problems going in and it would always get to one of 4 dens and one night whip brought her back to me and treed her within 50 yards of me and actually I was standing in front of the right den that night and I was so excited bout treeing her on the outside finally I shot her thinking it was a big boar and when reality she was a huge sow and I sure wished I would have thought bout it cause I really felt bad and wished I wouldn't have shot her as she could have worked a many of pups and trained them for me over the years !!! I can guarantee you if I ever get a relationship with another coon like her I will feed her to help her live !! True story !!!!!

Posted by john Duemmer on 12-03-2014 10:10 PM:

I have also seen some pretty good dogs down south come up here to our thick coon and look like idiots for a week or so until they learn to stick on one track long enough to get treed. You dump a dog that has always been hunted in thin coon into 20 acres of sweet corn with maybe a dozen coon feedin and they can fill a garmin screen before they push one out. You know they are switchin tracks and after a few nights most seem to get it figured out.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-03-2014 10:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by POTOMAC
I'm Just given you a hard time your exactly right I can pretty much tell you where there gonna strike and tree for the most if coon are moving !! I had one across the road years ago that coon would teach dogs more tricks and would always run 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile and when I say run I mean run in some stuff a rabbit would have problems going in and it would always get to one of 4 dens and one night whip brought her back to me and treed her within 50 yards of me and actually I was standing in front of the right den that night and I was so excited bout treeing her on the outside finally I shot her thinking it was a big boar and when reality she was a huge sow and I sure wished I would have thought bout it cause I really felt bad and wished I wouldn't have shot her as she could have worked a many of pups and trained them for me over the years !!! I can guarantee you if I ever get a relationship with another coon like her I will feed her to help her live !! True story !!!!!

Yeah I know what you mean, I can't say fer sure I have one like that, but it does seem that this time year when food sources start dry up they do start putting down longer tracks. I have seen spots dry up over night, and then 6 months later they turn on, I'm guessing its all related to food sources. My woods are usually the worse over the summer, im guessing its because a lot of the coon move down off the mountains into the hedgerows to feed on corn. I would be curious if anyone has ever tracked there movements with radio collars to see if they migrate much.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-03-2014 10:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I have also seen some pretty good dogs down south come up here to our thick coon and look like idiots for a week or so until they learn to stick on one track long enough to get treed. You dump a dog that has always been hunted in thin coon into 20 acres of sweet corn with maybe a dozen coon feedin and they can fill a garmin screen before they push one out. You know they are switchin tracks and after a few nights most seem to get it figured out.

Where in NY are you John?
I have family in Norwich Ny

I hear guys that say the reverse as well.. I try to diversify the populations of coon that i put my dogs in, I try to keep my pups in well known woods with thick coon, then once I feel that I can trust them be tempted more with off game, I will start to throw them in bigger woods.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 12-03-2014 10:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fisher13
Where in NY are you John?
I have family in Norwich Ny

I hear guys that say the reverse as well.. I try to diversify the populations of coon that i put my dogs in, I try to keep my pups in well known woods with thick coon, then once I feel that I can trust them be tempted more with off game, I will start to throw them in bigger woods.

Im right on lake Ontario,Niagara Co. about 30 miles north of Buffalo

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Posted by toe cutter on 12-03-2014 10:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by deschmidt27
I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because it really depends on your personal preference and the terrain you're hunting in. And I keep changing the terrain I hunt in! And... no matter how he's doing it, Boom will always get treed by himself, but that's a different story!

Some people's response that if a dog switches tracks, then it's going to be a long night, is confusing to me. But I am making some assumptions... I'm not saying a dog is "quitting" a track and then going and looking for another one, I'm saying two coon crossed paths, and the dog switched over to another coon. I'm also assuming that a dog would be inclined to switch to a hotter track, and therefore likely get treed sooner.

And to answer your question, if it bothers me... no, as I don't see it as a fault. I see him running with his nose off the ground, because he can, and if two trails of coon scent come into close proximity, and he "switches" to a hotter one, because his goal is not treeing that coon, but rather A coon, then I'm fine with that. And in certain terrain, this trait helps him move a track better.

I said it would be a long night here with dogs that can't scent lock on each individual coon.. I have seen some darn good dogs brought out of north Georgia and some parts of Texas up here and put in the thick coon. you put em in a 20 acre cornfield and when they strike 5 and 6 coon come out. since these dogs have always been hunted in very thin coon they have never had to develop their scent locking ability. they will consistently stand on their head, run in the corn for hours cause they won't single one track out and finish it. too many tracks for em,, they run one and cross another and take it and on and on. a dog has to be able to scent lock on each coon it finds here. aint much difference in a good gun dog rabbit dog running the same rabbit for over an hour in heavy populations of bunnies or a police dog tracking one man through a crowd of people.
but I'm not talking about a dog cold trailing around on a grub track and finding a hotter track.

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Posted by deschmidt27 on 12-03-2014 10:54 PM:

Now I see what you're saying. When they're all hot tracks...

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Posted by toe cutter on 12-03-2014 11:24 PM:

yep , all good tracks. I would expect a dog cold trailing a track to switch if it past over a hot track,
but with that said,
I've seen a dog track & tree a coon and after I rolled it out to him as soon as he saw it was dead he took off like his butt was on fire and went back 50 yrds and picked up a track he past on the way in and treed that one too.. he had never taken off like that before and it was not hard to tell he knew exactly where he was going when he blasted outta there.
some dogs are a lot smarter than most of us would believe.
and you can under line where I said some.

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Posted by Fisher13 on 12-04-2014 12:01 AM:

Tc this I think I would be the ideal traits to desire, I think daniel Wilson said his bear dog was capable of this. Tree a coon, then when cut loose remember where the last different coon he smelled was and go back and grab that track.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 12-05-2014 03:43 PM:

Fisher13,

To answer your question is coon do migrate from one area to another especially when there is a sudden food source such as an orchard that is at its peak. The thing is they don't migrate long distances as some animals are capable of doing.

What is mainly different this time of year is every coon won't move every night that other coon are moving. If a coon is fat and had a great diet before a cold snap, it may just sleep longer. Many coon will come out of their den, and get a drink of water and head right back to their den. Then if you had a coon who didn't layer the fat on that coon would have to move more. They are also the coons that seldom survive winters up here.

So you see it isn't that the coons moved during the winter, it is that some coons are like people they prefer to semi-hibernate during the winter.

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Posted by msinc on 12-05-2014 03:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
Fisher13,

To answer your question is coon do migrate from one area to another especially when there is a sudden food source such as an orchard that is at its peak. The thing is they don't migrate long distances as some animals are capable of doing.

What is mainly different this time of year is every coon won't move every night that other coon are moving. If a coon is fat and had a great diet before a cold snap, it may just sleep longer. Many coon will come out of their den, and get a drink of water and head right back to their den. Then if you had a coon who didn't layer the fat on that coon would have to move more. They are also the coons that seldom survive winters up here.

So you see it isn't that the coons moved during the winter, it is that some coons are like people they prefer to semi-hibernate during the winter.

I live on a peninsula surrounded by tidal water. We don't have the harsh winters of up north, but the coons here will "go in" when it snows. This makes it seem like they migrated away. They have to get pretty hungry to get out of a den when we have snow and an extended cold snap sometimes.
They will move around a lot here with the tidal water...when the moon is right and there is the lowest low tide they will move down the stream bottoms to the beaches to feed. They will go to tidal water especially if we have a bad wind that blows the water out even more...then they have a lot of beach to feed on.
I have spent a lot of time watching them on feeders with trail cameras and if they have a steady supply of food they are about like a bear, they wont range far at all. Cut off the food in the winter and they leave to an area that has better forage.
I have noticed too that they will feed sometimes right after dark for about a week then switch to early morning for a few nights...not sure why and no indicators as to when they are going to do this. I have also noted that it seems like when one decides it's time to get down and stomp around the others in the area do the same thing.

Posted by Ray&Luie on 12-05-2014 04:53 PM:

Hoppin

quote:
Originally posted by Ed zachary
I've been waitin for the guys that run the swamp coons for two hours before they tree to add alittle insight to this thread.

What about 3 hours ?

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Posted by Bobby Reynolds on 12-05-2014 09:20 PM:

I sure do not want to get into a debate on track switching, but I would be willing to bet in my part of the country it happens a lot more than people realize

Posted by Dale Young on 12-07-2014 03:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Im not sayin your wrong, i have heard other experienced hunters say they believe that a dog can tell one coon from another, but i believe if a dog is cold trailing a coon and crosses a hotter track that most dogs are going to switch to the hotter coon, atleast i hope mine would.

I'll vote for that and be disappointed if they didn't . I wanta see a coon and I'm not particular which one .

Posted by blackflagginit on 12-07-2014 10:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
I have always said snow does not lie.

you are hard pressed to get a coon to even climb down in this country with snow on. we don't have snow cover all winter like up north.........and MOST of the time what we get melts off in a few days or a week or so. the exception to that would be the feb/march boar coon who are........driven by a different urge than there belly

. other than that ours just hole up and wait it out as a rule. searching the snow when its on conferms it.

Back to the track skipping (that's what I call it anyway) it happens more than most people know nowdays. not because the dogs have changed that much.......gotten worse about it......but because most of todays "houndsmen" have never developed the "ear" for it like the old timers when I was a kid. They can pick there dog out of a pack (sometimes :/) and strike it and tree it.......but past that its all noise to them.

I have seen a lot of dogs who are bad about track skipping when pen sour though, who when hunted down hard settle in and work right......I think it comes from being wound so tight and needing that banked up energy burned off....once they are wore down some they operate like they are supposed too.

Add to those, the ones who just strike on anything......water, dog barking, babblers, trash, ect........and walla

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