UKC Forums - New Sectional Program

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Black & Tans (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=47)
-- New Sectional Program - Tree Countdown rule (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928373221)

Posted by Dirtdevil on 04-27-2014 07:59 PM:

I just like to hear dogs run and tree coon without being quirky and a good race with several good mouthed dogs running hot and helping pick up losses and then see-saw on a tree is what I have in mind when I pick a pup and start the long process of training him ...

Any scenario you can think of can happen and be ok if the dogs are being honest .... variety is the spice of life , but a dishonest habit like being jealous or cutting opposite of where we cast just to get alone ... or gambling on trees when tracks get tough instead of once in a while .. etc , etc ..... it just aint interesting enough for me to be out there in the woods at night losing sleep ....

Every point system in place now and the one like Randy's is gonna punish a track dog and coondog ... it sounds like folks want cur dogs .... since when do we vote on things or let a card decide the best dog instead of our judgement .....

Posted by david white on 04-27-2014 08:09 PM:

Understood. I sent ua pm fri. Did u get it

Posted by Dirtdevil on 04-27-2014 08:14 PM:

No , I don't see it ... but I cleared some old hate mail out ... it should go through if you try again .

Posted by jaw72 on 04-28-2014 02:35 AM:

countdown

I'd vote for the countdown with 100 first tree or no countdown with 125 first tree ,but the125 and countdown puts too much in favor of the tree dog . We're losing tracking ability now with dogs making lots of blank trees this would just encourage it!

Posted by Gene Raines on 04-28-2014 03:38 AM:

Blanks don't help in any KC...

Who cares if a dog is slick? As long as it's not mine..

Mine better be deep and lonely if he has not struck one red hot with the rest of the pack right after we cut them..

I'll take 2 by myself around here any day of the week versus packing with dogs all night.

Guess this is what makes the world go round though. Different strokes for different folks.

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Posted by david white on 04-28-2014 03:54 AM:

Y'all going Gene?

Posted by K. Singletary on 04-28-2014 01:36 PM:

Isn't the B&T Association UKC chartered? Too me, that says all that needs to be said. I sure don't see hundreds of B&T's at any of the events that offer a count down.

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Posted by mike pennington on 04-28-2014 02:27 PM:

Remember votes here don't count. If you go to Black and Tan Days, go to the membership meeting and vote.

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Posted by Darrell Eads on 04-28-2014 02:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Isn't the B&T Association UKC chartered? Too me, that says all that needs to be said. I sure don't see hundreds of B&T's at any of the events that offer a count down.

THATS RIGHT

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Posted by rweller on 04-28-2014 07:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Isn't the B&T Association UKC chartered? Too me, that says all that needs to be said. I sure don't see hundreds of B&T's at any of the events that offer a count down.

Your right, but the ABTCHA was one of the only Breeds that Voted FOR the count down tree at the Rules proposal last year at AO. We voted for it because at the time there was a poll weather we wanted it or not. Guess what won. Vote went to go with COUNTDOWN tree. It was the other breeds that voted against it not us. We also voted for it the last time there was a rules proposal.
So I don't see what the big deal is on this countdown tree. It seems a few DON'T want it and they have made that the focus on this proposal instead of the real issue. Which is trying to promote the sectionals.
We can always change things if it doesn't work but we need to get something like this in place to hopefully bring back some life to the Sectionals. If we don't try something the sectionals will probably be gone in the next few years then you will really have something to complain about. JMO
Go to the meeting and vote YES and then we can move forward on this.

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Posted by Smoke on 04-28-2014 07:27 PM:

I bet a lot of the people complaining about it won't even be in the running to make it to the hunt

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Posted by K. Singletary on 04-28-2014 08:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rweller
Your right, but the ABTCHA was one of the only Breeds that Voted FOR the count down tree at the Rules proposal last year at AO. We voted for it because at the time there was a poll weather we wanted it or not. Guess what won. Vote went to go with COUNTDOWN tree. It was the other breeds that voted against it not us. We also voted for it the last time there was a rules proposal.
So I don't see what the big deal is on this countdown tree. It seems a few DON'T want it and they have made that the focus on this proposal instead of the real issue. Which is trying to promote the sectionals.
We can always change things if it doesn't work but we need to get something like this in place to hopefully bring back some life to the Sectionals. If we don't try something the sectionals will probably be gone in the next few years then you will really have something to complain about. JMO
Go to the meeting and vote YES and then we can move forward on this.

Well having dogs qualifying under one set of rules and then hunting under another set doesn't make much sense. How do you know different dogs wouldn't have qualified in the first place using a different set of rules? You are basically saying you don't like UKC rules so you are going to use a different set of rules to attempt to increase attendance in UKC events. LOL That's pretty funny.

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Posted by John D on 04-28-2014 09:00 PM:

Whether a person thinks a countdown is a good rule or not is beside the point.

The point is this proposal should have had ONE goal. That is, to boost sectionals. They should have stayed FOCUSED on that. They did not do that, and this is where it has led us.

I am still surprised this proposal made it out of committee. The President or Chairman should have recognized this committee had no responsibility or authority to change or make nite hunt rule policy. He should have sent them back to the drawing board. Not the message board.

The good news is no harm done, its easy to fix and no reason for any hard feelings. I get distracted all the time. I'm supposed to be doing something else, right now. It happens.

jmo.

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Posted by berger on 04-28-2014 09:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rweller
.
We can always change things if it doesn't work but we need to get something like this in place to hopefully bring back some life to the Sectionals. If we don't try something the sectionals will probably be gone in the next few years then you will really have something to complain about. JMO
Go to the meeting and vote YES and then we can move forward on this.

If this Champion of Champions hunt will get voted for or against I would like to thank Mr. Jerrod Leathers for taking the time to get this proposal put together. Most importantly this at least showed that others are seeing the decline in BNT fanciers attending breed sectionals even if the number of sectionals aren't declining. The memorial hunt and show at BNT days was started and designed to draw more BNT dogs to the sectionals. To me and by looking thru the sectional reports, it does look as if it is not working as it was intended to. So maybe it is time to eliminate this activity and start something new to generate participation. Either way if it passes or doesn't as noted above the sectionals do need something new. So if it passes good if it doesn't good it doesn't mean the end of the BNT breed. At least the members and the executive board are aware of the attendance of bnt's in the sectionals.
The executive board could come up with a new sectional plan or even put a committee together to come up with a plan to try and drive up the numbers of bnt participation.
A lot of BNT fanciers are pleasure hunters. Out of 1200 or so members you might have 100 or 150 members that live and love the competition hunts. Now most of those I don't think you will see drive a lot of miles to go to a sectional. A majority of the members just like pleasure hunting and maybe hunt local hunts if that. Some might never go to a hunt unless it is a BNT sectional or BNT Days as they want to see other BNT dogs go. Well the less participation of black dogs in the sectionals the less likely they will drive a distance to a sectional. Either way hopefully something will come out of this proposal. I also don't have a problem with seeing rules changed up for the champion of champions to create something different as long as the majority enjoy it.

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Posted by jerrod leathers on 04-28-2014 09:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
Well having dogs qualifying under one set of rules and then hunting under another set doesn't make much sense. How do you know different dogs wouldn't have qualified in the first place using a different set of rules? You are basically saying you don't like UKC rules so you are going to use a different set of rules to attempt to increase attendance in UKC events. LOL That's pretty funny.

Dogs can qualify for Purina Nationals under Open Registered rules, then they have to hunt Nationals under Championship rules. Two different sets of rules, one for qualifying and one for the Championship. Other KC's have similar hunts where one set of rules qualify you and another applies to the championship. It's not really a novel idea. Making any sense yet?

I can't speak for everyone involved with this idea, but I can give you my opinion when I wrote the proposal. What I'm saying is that the ABTCHA has voted twice to amend UKC rules to include a tree countdown, therefore the majority of membership that competition hunts must like this rule and want this rule in place. What I'm saying is that the set of rules we put in place for the Champions Classic may attract people who hunt other registries to show up with their B&T at Sectionals and major UKC events to qualify for this hunt. What I'm saying is that a tree countdown rewards the dog that trees the coon first and also trees the most coons. Which one of these ideas do you find the funniest?

Posted by Corey Jeffries on 04-29-2014 12:08 AM:

Jerrod......

Don't get discouraged, you have done a great job!!! If the tree countdown causes this not to pass it had no hope in the first place. I think it should pass and hope it does. I truly believe if you were giving away cake and ice cream you would have problems with some of this bunch and their opinions!!!"JMO" Again good job jerrod, I hope your hard work pays off.

Posted by Gene Raines on 04-29-2014 03:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by david white
Y'all going Gene?

Would love to have Thunder up there, but already 2 people ahead of me had asked off for work.

Puts me out. I'm off Thurs but can't get Fri. You all still going up tomorrow? Hope your feeling better and wish we could all make it!

Posted by berger on 04-29-2014 03:25 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Gene Raines
Would love to have Thunder up there, but already 2 people ahead of me had asked off for work. Puts me out. I'm off Thurs but can't get Fri. You all still going up tomorrow? Hope your feeling better and wish we could all make it!

Sorry to hear Gene. I was in the same situation 4 people with seniority had off for Friday I was the first alternate. Lucky work got real slow the last week and looked slow for this week and I got Friday off anyway. I have the same scenario for a weekend in Aug sucks not having the seniority oh well maybe in another 10 yrs. I will.

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Posted by K. Singletary on 04-29-2014 04:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jerrod leathers
Dogs can qualify for Purina Nationals under Open Registered rules, then they have to hunt Nationals under Championship rules. Two different sets of rules, one for qualifying and one for the Championship. Other KC's have similar hunts where one set of rules qualify you and another applies to the championship. It's not really a novel idea. Making any sense yet?

I can't speak for everyone involved with this idea, but I can give you my opinion when I wrote the proposal. What I'm saying is that the ABTCHA has voted twice to amend UKC rules to include a tree countdown, therefore the majority of membership that competition hunts must like this rule and want this rule in place. What I'm saying is that the set of rules we put in place for the Champions Classic may attract people who hunt other registries to show up with their B&T at Sectionals and major UKC events to qualify for this hunt. What I'm saying is that a tree countdown rewards the dog that trees the coon first and also trees the most coons. Which one of these ideas do you find the funniest?

To my knowledge the membership has never voted on 125 first tree with a 30 second countdown, but if you say so, have it and good luck.

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Posted by rweller on 04-29-2014 07:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by K. Singletary
To my knowledge the membership has never voted on 125 first tree with a 30 second countdown, but if you say so, have it and good luck.

I didn't say the general membership voted on it. There was a poll taken on the countdown tree last summer just like this poll. Your right it was not a membership vote because the ABTCHA did not take anything to the rules proposal table. It was brought to the table either by UKC or another breed. But we did vote YES for the countdown tree. One of the things we took into consideration was the poll that was on here last summer.
We did not get the rules proposal until after B & T Days so the members couldn't vote on it before we went to the rules meeting.

Posted by John D on 04-29-2014 02:12 PM:

My understanding is the ABTCHA voted for the countdown the last 2 times the rules were changed. One of those times the ABTCHA was the only Assoc. which voted for it. "We" seem to be strongly in favor of a countdown, lol.

However, any poll I've seen, including this one, is almost even. There are currently about 3 old polls on the ABTHCA site and they are all within a couple votes, one way or another. IMO, the polls being that close only means the issue is very tight.

With this being such an evenly split issue, I wonder how the ABTCHA and OUR reps know how to vote when UKC asks? How do we know they are representing the majority of the membership?

This countdown is going to come up at every rules change. IMO, a vote needs to be taken from the membership and that's how the ABTCHA needs to vote.

Posted by K. Singletary on 04-29-2014 02:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rweller
I didn't say the general membership voted on it. There was a poll taken on the countdown tree last summer just like this poll. Your right it was not a membership vote because the ABTCHA did not take anything to the rules proposal table. It was brought to the table either by UKC or another breed. But we did vote YES for the countdown tree. One of the things we took into consideration was the poll that was on here last summer.
We did not get the rules proposal until after B & T Days so the members couldn't vote on it before we went to the rules meeting.

Can you provide a link to the poll? I don't ever remember a poll with 125 and a 30 second countdown. Here is a link to one where the association did vote in favor of the countdown but I sure don't see how they used the poll to do it. http://www.abtcha.net/forum/viewtop...light=countdown

I like everything about the proposal except for the fact that the committee had to go and make it political when there was no reason to do so. Took what should have been a nearly 100% vote in favor of and turned it into something that didn't need to be done.

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Posted by longshot on 04-29-2014 05:34 PM:

Ralph and Jerrod, welcome to Coondog Politics.

I went through the same fires when I was working of the WHIF Program. There were Polls done, advice going in all directions , and I even got a couple of cussings over the phone.

In the end, I didn't get 3-4 things that I wanted in the WHIF Program and I had to compromise.

What you have to decide is this: Are the merged rules worth dying for ? If the answer is yes, then go for it.. It No , then go back in committee and re-do thing's before B&T days.

It's possible that it wont even be an issue and pass as is... But I also know that some of the guys at that general meeting are about as Old school as it gets and they are steeped in UKC tradition.... If just ONE of those old codgers stands up in the meeting and makes a pitch against what you have proposed , it will likely go down in flames. One of those old grey haired farts can easily swing 30 votes on the spot.

So, is it worth dying for? As I've said, I don't like the changing of the rules, but it would NOT keep me from voting for it anyway. I would go with UKC rules myself, but that's just my opinion..

The sectionals are wobbling like a wounded Duck and need resuscitated badly. I'm not sure the WHIF will fix the World Hunt issues, and I'm not sure this Program will fix sectionals , but the breed should not sit around with it's thumb in it's rear-end and do nothing.

Good luck and God's speed.

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Posted by keithluse on 04-29-2014 08:40 PM:

ralf and jerrod thanks for all your hard work but it seems that kenny and some others like it just the way it is so that the me to dogs can come in right at the last minute and get second tree after they have went a quarter to get to the real coon dog.and yes kenny i hunt pkc and am proud of it

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Posted by Dirtdevil on 04-29-2014 08:43 PM:

The score card don't tell you who the real coondog is ... that's why making either track or tree lopsided is not necessary ... keep it level and let the real coondog prove it .

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