UKC Forums - Breed Outcrosses

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Redbones (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=51)
-- Breed Outcrosses (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928347241)

Posted by sox12 on 11-27-2013 04:57 PM:

Richard you are right you are never in any breed going to get people to agree on whats is the best or right .everyone has there own preference what they like to hunt .hunters in different hunting conditions look at things different.when i was able to hunt and walk a lot i want a dog where i could go any where and win rather up north down south or out west.when i went i never thought i couldnt win anywhere.that's what i believe should be in a dog today,no matter where it is hunted.

Posted by Crazy Luke on 11-27-2013 04:57 PM:

HUh...

Now dagnabit King...I told you before and I am gonna tell you again.....You keep talking like that and we are gonna become friends. Lucas...

Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-27-2013 05:22 PM:

I can make friends easily but I have a hard time keeping them.
And Mr Mason, didn't a single registered Redbone win High scoring Redbone/7th place at the 2012 World Championship? She was a female, but do you think that people are beating a path to her 'PR' bred sire? In my experience, simply winning/placing at the UKC World Championship doesn't mean much to breeders, whether it is a 'PR' bred dog or not.

Posted by Dale Young on 11-29-2013 04:04 AM:

The thing we agree on is we each feed what we like and I don't think that will change . The people who never see a registered hunt or show likely care less what color they are and at the end of the day color is what drops them into a breed category . We can say they hunt different or mind better but if they do everything like a redbone but look like a Bluetick then they'll be registered as a Bluetick .

Posted by buggy.paulus5 on 12-01-2013 02:30 AM:

outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

I hunt over redbones because of the attributes the breed already has in my eyes the breed has what you need in true coonhound if it aint broke dont fix it. Redbones are accurate stay put hardy treed dogs crossing out with other breeds would change the breed and not for the better there are plenty of bad qualities i have noticed in other breeds like...........

WALKER HOUNDS- run anything that puts down a scent and go for miles for the hell of it

BLACK AND TANS- hunt slow and back track on themselves with their cold noses

ENLISH HOUNDS- cant hold pressure and get a$$ over head on a track

BLUETICKS- cant make up their mind "scatterbrained"and me too off of other dogs

Plott HOUNDS- are boneheads that only wanna work a hot track

LEOPARD HOUNDS- are full of energy but dont have much drive to finish a track

This isnt the gospel just my opinions but im sure theres alot out there that agree with all of my thoughts on other breeds. So why would we want all of these negitive traits bred into our honest breed????

Posted by berger on 12-01-2013 02:49 AM:

Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5

WALKER HOUNDS- run anything that puts down a scent and go for miles for the hell of it

BLACK AND TANS- hunt slow and back track on themselves with their cold noses

ENLISH HOUNDS- cant hold pressure and get a$$ over head on a track

BLUETICKS- cant make up their mind "scatterbrained"and me too off of other dogs

Plott HOUNDS- are boneheads that only wanna work a hot track

LEOPARD HOUNDS- are full of energy but dont have much drive to finish a track

. So why would we want all of these negitive traits bred into our honest breed????

To help strength the good qualities that the redbones have...

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Posted by Brian Ratliff on 12-01-2013 04:07 PM:

Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5
I hunt over redbones because of the attributes the breed already has in my eyes the breed has what you need in true coonhound if it aint broke dont fix it. Redbones are accurate stay put hardy treed dogs crossing out with other breeds would change the breed and not for the better there are plenty of bad qualities i have noticed in other breeds like...........

WALKER HOUNDS- run anything that puts down a scent and go for miles for the hell of it

BLACK AND TANS- hunt slow and back track on themselves with their cold noses

ENLISH HOUNDS- cant hold pressure and get a$$ over head on a track

BLUETICKS- cant make up their mind "scatterbrained"and me too off of other dogs

Plott HOUNDS- are boneheads that only wanna work a hot track

LEOPARD HOUNDS- are full of energy but dont have much drive to finish a track

This isnt the gospel just my opinions but im sure theres alot out there that agree with all of my thoughts on other breeds. So why would we want all of these negitive traits bred into our honest breed????

I have seen PR Bred Redbones with every trait you've Described in the other Breeds.

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Posted by buggy.paulus5 on 12-01-2013 07:40 PM:

Re: Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Ratliff
I have seen PR Bred Redbones with every trait you've Described in the other Breeds.

I know i posted some strong words about other breeds but if youve seen all of these bad qualities in some red dogs youve been around trust me your running with the wrong crowd

Posted by berger on 12-01-2013 07:56 PM:

Re: Re: Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5
I know i posted some strong words about other breeds but if youve seen all of these bad qualities in some red dogs youve been around trust me your running with the wrong crowd

That's why you would cross breed to strength the redbones good qualities...

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Posted by buggy.paulus5 on 12-01-2013 08:19 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by berger
That's why you would cross breed to strength the redbones good qualities...

And how do you figure crossing out makes sense??? Sure crossing out might strenghthen traits that the breed has but i feel that alot more bad qualities will be passed on than good. The breed has consistantly been improving so why throw a wrench in the works now?

Posted by MightyOaks'Leps on 12-01-2013 08:39 PM:

Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5
I hunt over redbones because of the attributes the breed already has in my eyes the breed has what you need in true coonhound if it aint broke dont fix it. Redbones are accurate stay put hardy treed dogs crossing out with other breeds would change the breed and not for the better there are plenty of bad qualities i have noticed in other breeds like...........

WALKER HOUNDS- run anything that puts down a scent and go for miles for the hell of it

BLACK AND TANS- hunt slow and back track on themselves with their cold noses

ENLISH HOUNDS- cant hold pressure and get a$$ over head on a track

BLUETICKS- cant make up their mind "scatterbrained"and me too off of other dogs

Plott HOUNDS- are boneheads that only wanna work a hot track

LEOPARD HOUNDS- are full of energy but dont have much drive to finish a track

This isnt the gospel just my opinions but im sure theres alot out there that agree with all of my thoughts on other breeds. So why would we want all of these negitive traits bred into our honest breed????

I'm not sure that I agree entirely with your statement, except for outcrossing. I have owned and trained hounds from all of the hound group except for the plott breed...for myself and others and had top Walkers, Black and Tans and Blueticks. I now own Redbones and Leopards, and have hunted with some of the best Leopards around. Hounds and Leopards ability depends on the strain or line in my opinion. We owned and hunted alot of Leopards that are now todays foundation dogs. My Leopard Bushy always made over 100 trees a season...with coon seen at almost every tree. We had 12 finished Leopards in our kennel at one time. All were top coon dogs. I have 2 in my kennel now that aren't slouches...and a redbone male that is as good as any dog I've ever owned.

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Posted by berger on 12-01-2013 09:15 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5
And how do you figure crossing out makes sense??? Sure crossing out might strenghthen traits that the breed has but i feel that alot more bad qualities will be passed on than good. The breed has consistantly been improving so why throw a wrench in the works now?

You want to double up on the redbones good qualities don't you?? That is why you should cross breed!!!

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Posted by Brian Ratliff on 12-01-2013 10:18 PM:

Re: Re: Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5
I know i posted some strong words about other breeds but if youve seen all of these bad qualities in some red dogs youve been around trust me your running with the wrong crowd

If you havent seen it, you either havent hunted with many or your trying to fool everyone on this board.

I had a male at my house out of the # 1 historical reproducer that would grab a tree every 100 yds & wouldn't hunt more than 150 yds. Iv had them stand at my feet as long as you would stand In 1 spot. Iv had them run fast game out the country only to be caught up crossing the road 3 miles later. Iv had them quit good tracks because they got hung up on water, blow downs, sand & a # of other things. Iv seen them lay in the grass 20 yds from the cast until a dog treed to run in & make it sound like they done all the work, 1 was a male out of the # 1 historical female & is being bred everyday.....

I havent been around as many as some guys on this board but iv been around enough to see every trait you discribed & I'd bet a lot more people would say the same if they wanted to be honest with themselves & everyone else.

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Posted by MightyOaks'Leps on 12-01-2013 11:08 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by Brian Ratliff
If you havent seen it, you either havent hunted with many or your trying to fool everyone on this board.

I had a male at my house out of the # 1 historical reproducer that would grab a tree every 100 yds & wouldn't hunt more than 150 yds. Iv had them stand at my feet as long as you would stand In 1 spot. Iv had them run fast game out the country only to be caught up crossing the road 3 miles later. Iv had them quit good tracks because they got hung up on water, blow downs, sand & a # of other things. Iv seen them lay in the grass 20 yds from the cast until a dog treed to run in & make it sound like they done all the work, 1 was a male out of the # 1 historical female & is being bred everyday.....

I havent been around as many as some guys on this board but iv been around enough to see every trait you discribed & I'd bet a lot more people would say the same if they wanted to be honest with themselves & everyone else.

That's exactly a true statement...I have been sent some hounds to train that just didn't have it...A Walker that would curl up and sleep in the woods...hounds that would run a deer for two days etc. When you begin to study strains and lines and genetics...you can somewhat move away from the strains and lines that do not perform, and concentrate on the lines that do...of any breed.
I've also competition hunted and had other dogs in the cast called off of my dogs...seen me too dogs look great...and been beaten by some fine dogs that any man would be proud to own...regardless of color...including Redbones and Leopards.
I've also seen quite a few Redbones that were utterly worthless and performed as described about the other hounds listed...

Posted by masonman1974 on 12-01-2013 11:48 PM:

I would think that all breeds of coonhounds have their fair share of culls ,but if your talkin about a dog chasing deer being a fault ,then I would say the guy who trained this dog has the fault...I would think a dog that will run deer till daylight without giving up would have the drive needed to make a good coondog...if trained right...

Posted by Bigridge kennel on 12-02-2013 12:16 AM:

I agree and disagree , I hunt redbones and walkers and plotts and have hunted all them BUT blue ticks and I for one seen many dang good blue ticks but can't afford 600 for a pup cause people around
Me think they are gold. I think you should be able to cross breed jmo . I believe in breeding your best to someone else's best . There's good in every breed , gotta study your papers and make the right crosses and you will get whatcha want . Not all walkers slick tree not all blue ticks and Black and Tans run tracks slow not all Englishs run deer not all redbones trash . Heck there's some dang good curs out there to . I'll take any dog that will tree a coon . Out crosses Seem like a good idea . I'd rather cross breed then " line breed " jmo

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Posted by MightyOaks'Leps on 12-02-2013 01:38 AM:

Deer Chasing...

quote:
Originally posted by masonman1974
I would think that all breeds of coonhounds have their fair share of culls ,but if your talkin about a dog chasing deer being a fault ,then I would say the guy who trained this dog has the fault...I would think a dog that will run deer till daylight without giving up would have the drive needed to make a good coondog...if trained right...

No...not a fault...just frustrating as all get out...easy to break though once I got them sent to me to train...had a black and tan sent to me to train that was an outstanding track and tree dog that would flat bust a deer occasionally. He got broke off deer too. I had another black and tan sent to me that was lite on the tree...hunted her all summer and she went on to become a solid stay put tree dog. I tried to buy her but couldn't afford the mans price after he got her back.
Some of the dogs sent to me to train just didn't have it though. I used to hunt 6 nights a week from dusk until dawn on over 2000 acres...that was a lot of years ago.
I've also trained and owned a lot of Kemmer Curs...Blueticks...Redticks, Redbones and others. All have good and bad traits in their breeds. My favorite breed back then was Walkers though.
To break dogs from running deer I built a plywood box just big enough for the hound to enter and lay down, but they couldn't turn around in it. It was lined on all of the walls, floor and ceiling with shag carpet, saturated with deer urine. It had a small round hole on each side. Every hour, the dog was buzzed with a cattle prod without saying a word...kept in the box for 3 days and only taken out to eat, drink and use the bathroom. They usually wouldn't look at a deer after that. That was back in the day when I couldn't afford a shock collar. I also charged $40.00 dollars a month per dog...
Back to breeding: In my opinion...outcrossing to (different breeds) may produce hybrid vigor the first generation...but the genetic variables become to varied with subsequent generations...line breeding and inbreeding allows a breeder to enhance the traits he desires, and to remove traits that are faults. An outcross can be introduced from within the same breed but from a different strain to achieve better results. If we study pedigrees and creative breeding (if they are accurate) we should see lines that continually stay above the norm or the breed as a whole plotted on a bell curve will generally be family line-in bred lines. Some of the best crosses that we made were Father X Daughter...Son X Mother...etc. Some of the best known dogs produced were Father x Daughter...then a female pup from that cross bred back to her Grandsire...a female pup from that breeding crossed back on her Great Grandsire, then a female from that breeding crossed onto an out cross within the same breed but from a different line. The resultant pups exhibit Hybrid vigor and have produced Champions...not just in dogs, but most lines of horses, cattle etc. All of the modern day Thorough Bred race horses were bred from two studs and seven mares..

Posted by thecoondawg76 on 12-02-2013 05:21 PM:

If I remember right...

quote:
Originally posted by masonman1974
I would think that all breeds of coonhounds have their fair share of culls ,but if your talkin about a dog chasing deer being a fault ,then I would say the guy who trained this dog has the fault...I would think a dog that will run deer till daylight without giving up would have the drive needed to make a good coondog...if trained right...

Wasn't it Joe House that said give him a hound that would run deer like that and he'd make it a World Champion.

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Posted by mike bennett on 12-03-2013 08:20 PM:

Re: outcrosses are not needed if ya ask me

quote:
Originally posted by buggy.paulus5
I hunt over redbones because of the attributes the breed already has in my eyes the breed has what you need in true coonhound if it aint broke dont fix it. Redbones are accurate stay put hardy treed dogs crossing out with other breeds would change the breed and not for the better there are plenty of bad qualities i have noticed in other breeds like...........

WALKER HOUNDS- run anything that puts down a scent and go for miles for the hell of it

BLACK AND TANS- hunt slow and back track on themselves with their cold noses

ENLISH HOUNDS- cant hold pressure and get a$$ over head on a track

BLUETICKS- cant make up their mind "scatterbrained"and me too off of other dogs

Plott HOUNDS- are boneheads that only wanna work a hot track

LEOPARD HOUNDS- are full of energy but dont have much drive to finish a track

This isnt the gospel just my opinions but im sure theres alot out there that agree with all of my thoughts on other breeds. So why would we want all of these negitive traits bred into our honest breed????

Your description on walkers is the reason we use redbones to run deer and I am going to have to check their papers,but I would bet they are from some pr dogs. maybe even on the redbone reproducers list.

Posted by Bigridge kennel on 12-03-2013 09:21 PM:

And you must hunt the wrong bloodline of plott , the quickest starting dog matter of fact the best dog I have been in the woods with was a plott female that came from bill hicks and idk what you consider hot nosed lol? I've seen some trail a 14 hour old bear track

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Pr' bigridge ole dan
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Nt.ch. Reece's show no mercy
bigridge bear crazy blue
Pr' bigridge diesel

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