UKC Forums - How would you stop cheating in Hunts?

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-- How would you stop cheating in Hunts? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928344024)

Posted by Tim Toler on 10-23-2013 04:11 PM:

to give you an example... but no way you could prove something like this...

I spectated a hunt recently where there was three dogs on one tree and the 4th dog was split and was about 30 or 40 yards away declared treed by itself... the tree with the three dogs on it was shined first... The judge made the first vote... and voted to minus the tree... hardly no leaves on the tree.. it had a dead log laying against the truck of the tree with a hole in it and the log only went about 10 feet into the tree so you could see in the hole... the other three voted to circle the tree because of the hole...

the cast proceeded to the dog by itself... they shined the tree the majority voted to minus the tree... the dog by itself was the dog the judge was hunting... but on the way back towards the truck one of the cast members made the comment "I will show him if he is going to vote my tree minus I will vote to minus every one of his trees" sad thing is everyone but the judge was between the ages of 16 and 18... and the young man that made the comment barely even shined the second tree... now that situation you can't prove cheating... but my point is that is what the young guys has seen from older guys and heard them so that is the thought process of the younger guys hunting...

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Posted by crazyjuice on 10-23-2013 04:23 PM:

20 years ago you had to have a coondawg to be a grand it's now all you need is a good handler I hunt with several grand nite state champ breed champs I mean dogs that win alot but turned alone they nothing but boot warmers how did they win all that and can't tree a coon cheating
There is a reason they pay these guys big money to handle these dogs and it's not because their honesty it's sad

Posted by Nelson Kirkland on 10-23-2013 04:50 PM:

Most of what you write here I am questioning, but I agree with your last post Tim. By the rules, scored correctly but morally it was scored wrong.

I believe in second chances. I believe in our judicial system. I believe a set of rules are designed to be adhered to. I don't believe anyone is anymore righteous than anyone else at a coon hunt. We have all voted in favor of a friend and have all voted against our perceived enemy when it probably was not the right thing to do,, regardless of the situation, coon hunt or other. If you compete, you have.

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Posted by Jackson87 on 10-23-2013 05:08 PM:

I know there's rules to stop it but I think auto striking dogs right off the chain is the biggest fault to the hunts.To me its cheating.Bad part is the guy doing it is usually the judge or has another handler join in.Majority of the time the dogs will not shut up long enough for the 8 to catch them.Everybody there knows they ant runnin a coon but they will gladly take the points they don't deserve.

Posted by Tim Toler on 10-23-2013 05:30 PM:

Nelson, not sure if the part of your last post was meant towards me or not, about questioning what I have said... but I will tell you this... I have not or will not knowingly cheat at something... but as I stated in an earlier post... there has been situations handled in the woods that later found out that we handle them wrong.. but wasn't deliberately done... so I guess you could say that all of us in the cast cheated... because we voted and agreed to handle the said situation the way that we did... in no way am I saying that I am perfect nor am I saying that I haven't probably handled some situations wrong... but I can say that I haven't knowingly handled them wrong.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-23-2013 05:36 PM:

O.K. I will take a stab.

I will admit that I first made a list of 5 items. Then I highlighted them and hit the delete button.

Fact of the matter is cheaters are cheaters. The only way to get rid of them are by utilizing strict consequences. Thinking we can change the nature of a cheater is like a liberal believing gun control will deter gun violence. Criminals are not going to follow the gun laws ... they are criminals by their own nature.

That doesn't mean that we can not provide a good role model for youngsters.

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Posted by Dan D. on 10-23-2013 05:56 PM:

what i would do

i would just tell myself im not gonna cheat and i wouldnt. lol just tryin to lighten things up. i hate cheaters.

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Posted by Tim Toler on 10-23-2013 05:58 PM:

Re: what i would do

quote:
Originally posted by Dan D.
i would just tell myself im not gonna cheat and i wouldnt. lol just tryin to lighten things up. i hate cheaters.

I agree...

Posted by Outback1 on 10-23-2013 08:31 PM:

What I would like to see is non-hunting judges on all casts, I know that is not pratical but it will deture cheaters,
also have all CW go out for a hunt off, with a non hunting judge.
that will help the coon dogs seperate from the bucket dogs.

Posted by mark10 on 10-23-2013 09:49 PM:

bottom line we are given a set of honor rules they are called honor for a reason and until each of us enforces as judges and handlers these rules we will have cheaters. The other thing is the governing body be it any kc once a person is caught and convicted you have to make the punishment fit the crime...jmo....

Posted by st8shooter on 10-23-2013 11:23 PM:

Jackson87, do you know Mark V?

Posted by GA DAWG on 10-23-2013 11:39 PM:

You wanna hear somebody really pitch a fit. Try feeding them their own medicine. Not that Id do that or anything

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Posted by Jackson87 on 10-23-2013 11:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by st8shooter
Jackson87, do you know Mark V?

Nope.

Posted by perry co cooner on 10-24-2013 10:41 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by T.Beyer
The only way to put a stop to cheating in the hunts is to stop having them.

The best you can hope for is an honest draw with honest houndsmen. The problem is that some people have such a desire to win anything they will do whatever it takes to do it.

This is the correct answer. No rules are going to change human nature. Luckily people like this are the minority and most are just honest hunters trying to win a hunt.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 10-24-2013 03:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Outback1
What I would like to see is non-hunting judges on all casts, I know that is not pratical but it will deture cheaters,
also have all CW go out for a hunt off, with a non hunting judge.
that will help the coon dogs seperate from the bucket dogs.

Outback,

I have seen more than one nonhunting judge that will flat out cheat at the drop of the hat. I have seen one do it for his breed, and I have seen one do it for the strain he hunted. I have seen one do it for his buddy.

I work at a university do you have any idea how bad cheating has gotten? Is there any sport that is free from cheating?

First and foremost, we most take care of our own houses, if ya get what I mean.

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Posted by Dwils on 10-24-2013 03:52 PM:

I would like to see more clubs take the first step in disciplinary actions by refusing entries or suspending the individual from participating in events . Or have them pay a fine to the club if they wish to participate again . If they are a repeat offender , bar them from the club . Doesn't sound like much , but going through the stress of barring or filing a formal complaint through Ukc is known to be a hassle. If clubs on a local would do this and even notify each other of a shady individual , that would help too . Some of the local shiesters if seen will stop all BS and cheating when they start to really tarnish their name ..... They end up either getting worse or clean up their act.... Maybe I'm all wrong and this is a stupid idea but it's just an idea

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Posted by John D on 10-24-2013 04:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by T.Beyer
The only way to put a stop to cheating in the hunts is to stop having them.
.

That's just about the truth, in this day and age.

Obviously, if there was a harder line against cheating, we'd see less of it. 5% of the hunters cause 95% of the cheating, but for some reason the KC's just can't bear to let go of that bottom 5%. That bottom 5% consists of convicted felons, ex-cons, abusers, and losers in other parts of their lives, but they win a dumb nite hunt so they get trotted out on the magazine covers? Then, once they do that, they are "untouchable". C'mon man....

Maybe KC's can't survive without the revenue from the bottom 5% or maybe their lawyers won't let them go after those guys but for whatever reason, they let a lot slide by and nobody holds them accountable.

I often wish there was a Fox News or a 60 Minutes in this sport. Wouldn't you like to see some unbiased, non-KC affiliated media in this sport? There is no free press in coonhunting. The only way you will know about cheaters in a nite hunt is if you experience it, or someone passes word to you (gossip).

Anyhow, I've probably said more than I should, so I'll shuddup....

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Posted by Steve Flint on 10-24-2013 07:33 PM:

Actually wild coon hunts and how crooked or honest they are depends on the hunter and cast. If you read the rules of UKC remember what they are called "Nitehunt Honor Rules" if you notice most of the guys everyone calls cheaters have no "Honor".
Questions:
1.Have any of us ever with drawn and left the cast? Then see that cast go and score an unreal score and win the hunt or 1st place? Then we complain about how they had to cheat?
2. Have we with drawn from the cast sit at the truck then complain that there was nothing in the tree they scored or that the dogs moved?
ANSWER: 1st. If you leave a cast you should never say a word about what happened after you left, because you have every right and should at any cost stay with them and see every coon and make the remaining members go by the rules.

3.Have any of us ever had the dogs get really deep and decide to drive around to get to them and save a few steps?
ANSWER:2nd. If you don't walk to every tree in order you do drive to a tree you are cheating!

4.Have any of us ever let a guy slide because his dog wouldn't hunt and not scratch him? Then his dog walks beside you trees 3 coon and wins the cast.
5. Have any of you ever allowed a guy to with draw a fighting dog? Not want to vote on what you know is right?
Answer:3rd. One way to get better dogs winning in the hunts is to get rid of the ones who won't hunt or the mean ones is scratch them by the rules, if you don't do it just as the rules say your cheating!

Be careful when you want to get rid of all the CHEATERS!

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Posted by Jeff Ashmore on 10-24-2013 08:51 PM:

St8 Shooter

I don't know what you are getting at but I know him and his dogs. If you are inciting that his dogs do that or he does I have never saw it. In several years now I have never seen that from him. Missed you at our meeting or you didn't say who you were.

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Posted by Clif Owen on 10-24-2013 10:02 PM:

I agree that the only way to completely stop all cheating is to quit hosting hunts.

OK..here is a spin that hasn't been mentioned yet: Several years ago; I was at a hunt. One of the casts came in with a super score on either 4 or 5 coons. Now, it isn't TOTALLY unheard of to score that many, but it is rare. One of the club members happened to talk to a guy that was on the cast the next day and commented that they had a good hunt that night. The response was "What do you mean?? We had a dead cast" Come to find out, 2 of the guys were riding back and one commented that it was a shame they didn't score because the dogs had done such a good job. Long story short; one paid the other some cash and they altered the card. Changed the trees to plusses.
The club held a meeting and voted that the handler(s") should be banned for 5 years. UKC followed through with the ban. Actions such as this go a long way to deter cheating.

Posted by bigtimberkennel on 10-25-2013 01:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by st8shooter
Jackson87, do you know Mark V?

What do ya what ta know about Mark V,we were officers for a couple or 3 years at our club?

Posted by Mark V. on 10-25-2013 01:56 AM:

st8Shooter I think you must know me (from the other post you have been on) so how about giving us a clue of who you are?

Posted by Bob Hennessey on 10-25-2013 02:37 AM:

.Have any of us ever had the dogs get really deep and decide to drive around to get to them and save a few steps?
ANSWER:2nd. If you don't walk to every tree in order you do drive to a tree you are cheating!

This statement is not true. UKC advisor page 122. UKC in the advisor states it is permissible in certain situations to drive around to the dogs.

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Posted by cooncrazy7 on 10-25-2013 06:45 AM:

All non hunting judges 50 strike across the board 100 tree with the countdown only timeouts are to be called when moving or dogs get out of hearing. Only plus or minus no circle points at all. I've seen squirrel holes circled i mean like a woodpecker just made em holes. The circle points hurt more than anything especially when two or three get teamed up.

Posted by River Birch Run on 10-25-2013 01:41 PM:

You guys keep saying how if your barred from one KC you should be barred from another. However you forget about all the stupid stuff that people do not on purpose that they get barred for or the real crooks get a good guy barred because he showed up at the wrong club. How many of you have dropped a female off to get bred and left her at the stud dog owers house for a few days and picked her up later? Well if you reg. the litter you lied on the ukc papers because you have to sign the papers stating that you witnessed that the female was bred by that stud dog. Or how many of you have bought a dog/pup only to get home and see the papers were not signed by the owner so you just sign there name to it and send in the papers? Another barable offense. This stuff happens everyday by guys that would never cheat anyone in a hunt. But get caught and you are barred!

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