UKC Forums - Why and What?

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-07-2013 03:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by 408northville
To answer your questions you cannot add those things it in any breed. Contrary to what you may have heard you cannot breed one time to any hound and get a specific trait. Traits are controlled by a genetic code. The family has to be related and the genes have to be fixed in order to keep a specific trait. The inbreeding coefficient is the percentage of homogenous genes. The higher the inbreeding coefficient , the greater the chance the offspring will have in getting the homogenous genes from their parents. Hound must have a high inbreeding coefficient before you can attempt to fix traits. This is the main reason you have not see much improvement in any of the breeds and the reason people keep going back to the past. If you breed to another hound that is very fast to add speed to your hound, chances are, you will never get, if you do, you may never see it again. Because each time you breed your changing the genetic code. Before you can change or add a trait you have to make the genes homogenous within the family. If the genes are not homogenous you start all over with each breeding other than the genes that make them a hound. JTG

there are hounds that carry Homozygous genes, which means they will pass that trait on no matter whay they are breed to.

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Posted by 408northville on 09-07-2013 03:36 PM:

The problem with that is their offspring will not. Unless the hounds are related you start over with each breeding.

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
there are hounds that carry Homozygous genes, which means they will pass that trait on no matter whay they are breed to.

Posted by ov_blues on 09-07-2013 05:11 PM:

I appreciate all the input so far. Keeping this thread clean, and informative may help someone, including me, in a better way. Although some of the time, some of the people on here are referred to as computer hunters or whatever, there are some on here that I respect their opinions and know what a TOP hound is. Getting out and hunting with stud dogs, pups out of the studs, etc is somewhat harder to do than if our Blueticks had larger numbers. I think that is a disadvantage to us as a whole. So, input, good or bad, can be positive.

My Dad started with, and I continued with him, breeding Blueticks several generations of dogs ago. Dad was always a person that said if he saw something he liked outside our kennel, and he thought it would add something to our dogs, he would go get some of it. I feel the same. When I realized the magnitude of trying to breed hounds that could compete on a national level against any breed, it became obvious to me how low the percentage would be of completing that task just using the dogs tied out back so to speak. So, we went out and purchased, hunted with, and tried to gather information on as many lines and dogs as we could. I think a lot of what has been talked about on different lines and their abilities is fairly accurate.

JV (whom I have talked to on the phone and doesn't seem like a half bad person. lol) keeps saying that we don't have the gene pool to work with to improve our Blueticks. I disagree. I have seen Blue dogs that hunt just as hard, don't have quit, aren't lazy, etc. I've seen Blue dogs that are just as fast on their feet as any hound of any breed. I've seen the dogs that can drive any kind of track, locate just as quick, tree just as hard, etc. I'm sure a lot of you have. JV has brought up a point that doesn't get discussed a lot. Where are the lines or dogs that know how to compete? To put all of it's tools together, even if they aren't quite as good as the competition, and still be able to win? Not get flustered and have that competitive attitude? Is that what is missing in some of our Blue dogs? Who has those types of dogs?

__________________
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Posted by 408northville on 09-07-2013 05:45 PM:

John, the bluetick breed has everything you need and more. Going outside what you have to get a specific trait that is missing is fine, but you bring everything else with it, good and bad. A better way and a way that works is finding top related hounds and improving them by keeping whole litters and only breed within that family. The problem all breeds are having is not cleaning up what you do have and using methods that do not work. The method should be based on results not what someone said or heard. If the method of breeding is working there would be constant improvement with each breeding.
The walkers are also have the same problems, that is not much improvement or at least the way I look at improvement." measurable results" There's more walkers than bluetick so the law of numbers will always give them an edge.
JTG

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
I appreciate all the input so far. Keeping this thread clean, and informative may help someone, including me, in a better way. Although some of the time, some of the people on here are referred to as computer hunters or whatever, there are some on here that I respect their opinions and know what a TOP hound is. Getting out and hunting with stud dogs, pups out of the studs, etc is somewhat harder to do than if our Blueticks had larger numbers. I think that is a disadvantage to us as a whole. So, input, good or bad, can be positive.

My Dad started with, and I continued with him, breeding Blueticks several generations of dogs ago. Dad was always a person that said if he saw something he liked outside our kennel, and he thought it would add something to our dogs, he would go get some of it. I feel the same. When I realized the magnitude of trying to breed hounds that could compete on a national level against any breed, it became obvious to me how low the percentage would be of completing that task just using the dogs tied out back so to speak. So, we went out and purchased, hunted with, and tried to gather information on as many lines and dogs as we could. I think a lot of what has been talked about on different lines and their abilities is fairly accurate.

JV (whom I have talked to on the phone and doesn't seem like a half bad person. lol) keeps saying that we don't have the gene pool to work with to improve our Blueticks. I disagree. I have seen Blue dogs that hunt just as hard, don't have quit, aren't lazy, etc. I've seen Blue dogs that are just as fast on their feet as any hound of any breed. I've seen the dogs that can drive any kind of track, locate just as quick, tree just as hard, etc. I'm sure a lot of you have. JV has brought up a point that doesn't get discussed a lot. Where are the lines or dogs that know how to compete? To put all of it's tools together, even if they aren't quite as good as the competition, and still be able to win? Not get flustered and have that competitive attitude? Is that what is missing in some of our Blue dogs? Who has those types of dogs?

Posted by ov_blues on 09-07-2013 06:22 PM:

408northville

I do realize the concept of keeping entire litters, hand selecting the best, and going from there. I know it works, been there and done that till life got in the way of the hounds. Too dang old now to start over and wait for the results that I am looking for. Not to mention the expense of keeping multiple dogs is killing me. lol. I drive junk to be able to feed the dogs now.

I would think that like minded breeders could work together somewhat to achieve a higher goal. Maybe I'm dreaming. I know that even like minded people are going to evaluate good dogs a little different and have different opinions of what they like. Let's say that one of my dogs is throwing pups that have hunt, speed, winding and natural treeing instinct but they want to be accurate so are not going to gamble to make a tree if they aren't sure. There are a lot of guys that want those traits. Some are not going to, they may want more gambling on the tree. I'm sure that is a difference of opinion, but someone could use that information. That is all I'm trying to get discussed on this thread.

__________________
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Posted by prostockpat on 09-07-2013 06:46 PM:

here we go

"there are more walkers than blueticks...so they have an advantage"? why is this STILL used as an EXCUSE?
YOU compete against "3" dogs in a cast,who cares what color they are!
If you can't beat them 3,what does it matter overall?

So when Tiger Woods goes into a slump,he should say this; "there are more white guys in the pga.so they have a advantage!! lol

and to say walkers are not any better in their breeding is stretching it.
the top comp hunters want and breed for med.-warm nosed dogs.big motors,get gone,get treed and independent for COMP. HUNTING!!!
now when the leaves fall off and the ground gets cold{frost/snow}the hot nosed comp dogs look bad{here}

Posted by Wayne Valentino on 09-07-2013 10:43 PM:

Re: here we go

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat

Here you are, owners of Walkers want comp. wins.. when the leaves drop things seem to change... I know of some good winter time lines of Walkers, but I gravitate to blueticks because of the winter time performance..

"there are more walkers than blueticks...so they have an advantage"? why is this STILL used as an EXCUSE?
YOU compete against "3" dogs in a cast,who cares what color they are!
If you can't beat them 3,what does it matter overall?

So when Tiger Woods goes into a slump,he should say this; "there are more white guys in the pga.so they have a advantage!! lol

and to say walkers are not any better in their breeding is stretching it.
the top comp hunters want and breed for med.-warm nosed dogs.big motors,get gone,get treed and independent for COMP. HUNTING!!!
now when the leaves fall off and the ground gets cold{frost/snow}the hot nosed comp dogs look bad{here}

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Posted by 408northville on 09-07-2013 11:00 PM:

Re: here we go

You made my point, Tiger Woods is an African American who is as good or better than white golfers although white golfers have more wins because there's more white golfers. No excuses here, some walkers are better in their breeding just like some blueticks and other breeds are better. Some of the best breeders do not completion hunt or sell many pups and those type of breeders have some of the best dogs. Point being not much improvement in any breed over the last 30 years so the question is why? You do not see as many slick treeing blueticks as you do in the Walker breed.

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat
"there are more walkers than blueticks...so they have an advantage"? why is this STILL used as an EXCUSE?
YOU compete against "3" dogs in a cast,who cares what color they are!
If you can't beat them 3,what does it matter overall?

So when Tiger Woods goes into a slump,he should say this; "there are more white guys in the pga.so they have a advantage!! lol

and to say walkers are not any better in their breeding is stretching it.
the top comp hunters want and breed for med.-warm nosed dogs.big motors,get gone,get treed and independent for COMP. HUNTING!!!
now when the leaves fall off and the ground gets cold{frost/snow}the hot nosed comp dogs look bad{here}

Posted by ov_blues on 09-07-2013 11:44 PM:

Ok, we need the Tiger Woods of the Bluetick Breed who can produce more little Tigers. lol. Where is he????

__________________
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Posted by ov_blues on 09-08-2013 12:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
what are you seeing as strong traits in your hounds out of the old Sexton's Jimmy? good and bad

Obviously they go back to several other dog's as well, but they do seem to put brains, mouths, pups that hunt naturally, start real easy, like to wind, and they look up because of the winding. Accuracy vs amount of trees, color domination, and how soon their pups mature is the difference in what the two brothers throw in their pups. The bad is they will throw some dogs that do some chewing on the tree ( a complete fault to some and not an issue to others), they will run some junk but smart enough to be broke easily, and CR Jimmy's pups want to be real accurate(again preference) . The female being bred and the preferences of what someone wants in those areas would be the deciding factors when choosing between the two imo.

__________________
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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by willscreek1 on 09-08-2013 12:35 AM:

same old story

those that dont have the dedication and belief in their programs will keep reaching out and trying to buy success---you breed two unrelated hounds and hope to hit the lottery===get lucky and do it........you still have the same odds next cross...........................at least one of the hounds in any cross needs to be heavy family bred and true to type in order to maintain stability and be reasonably sure what was gained or lost with the mating=====just my opinion and sharing what has worked for me.

answering the ?

my hounds are generally very intelligent,easy to start and natural treedogs with little or no chewing and no jacking(a peeve of mine),i have worked to keep a 65lb tight built male with a nice blocky hound head, with most being saddle backed---they have much better mouths than the ones i started with and are virtually trash free when handled correctly,they also hunt the way you turn em as this is something i really must have along with being accurate from the time they start treeing......they have proven themselves in competition for 6 generations now under my guidance.........my hounds please me and i dont need to raise 50 pups to get a nice one anymore.

i am always looking to add a hard hunting, lock down on the locate,stay put treedog to the mix but its the individual strengths and weakness as i see it that dictate the individuals that are mated................most of mine will get the track moving before they get struck--like it to be a little quicker but hate a loose mouth and will not hunt a silent one.

Posted by ov_blues on 09-08-2013 12:45 AM:

Re: same old story

quote:
Originally posted by willscreek1
those that dont have the dedication and belief in their programs will keep reaching out and trying to buy success---you breed two unrelated hounds and hope to hit the lottery===get lucky and do it........you still have the same odds next cross

My question is "unrelated" how far back? We're not that far away from the roots, in a lot of cases, to say most Blue dogs are "unrelated". But I do understand what you are saying to a point.

__________________
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Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Posted by willscreek1 on 09-08-2013 01:05 AM:

john, my opinion is that a dog needs to share a majority of the same ancestors in the first 4 generations and basically operate in similar fashion to be considered family bred enough to make a difference.

Posted by 408northville on 09-08-2013 02:08 AM:

Four generations is just a good start and the closer they are related the faster you will be able to add and remove certian traits by the process of selection using only the best to breed within that related litter and than family. When I say related the furthest being half brother and sister. By breeding this way the desirable genes remain the same or dominant, since there are no outcrosses the genes become dominate pushing the undesirable genes deep into recessiveness so they do not express themselves except in rare cases. Genes do not leave but are rearranged by the breeder and become fixed.
Breeding this way takes time and very few are willing or understand enough about genetics, so they search for instant success.
JTG

Posted by max destruction on 09-08-2013 04:28 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Ok, we need the Tiger Woods of the Bluetick Breed who can produce more little Tigers. lol. Where is he????

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Posted by southernthunder on 09-08-2013 07:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by ov_blues
Obviously they go back to several other dog's as well, but they do seem to put brains, mouths, pups that hunt naturally, start real easy, like to wind, and they look up because of the winding. Accuracy vs amount of trees, color domination, and how soon their pups mature is the difference in what the two brothers throw in their pups. The bad is they will throw some dogs that do some chewing on the tree ( a complete fault to some and not an issue to others), they will run some junk but smart enough to be broke easily, and CR Jimmy's pups want to be real accurate(again preference) . The female being bred and the preferences of what someone wants in those areas would be the deciding factors when choosing between the two imo.

thanks for that info

Posted by Dirtdevil on 09-08-2013 05:09 PM:

Tiger Woods is a hybrid ! He's got a little of everything in his ancestry just like most of our hounds ...

Posted by rfreeman on 09-08-2013 05:28 PM:

Maybe I don't understand but stylish Harry for example only has 1 common dog in the third gen and that's lipper. He produced. Don't know on sackett jr or rat but I don't think they are closely line bred. I'm no breeder just a hunter like most folks. Seems to me breeding individuals with (good) like traits would be more important than if they had the same great grand dad 4 or 5 or 6 times.
I guess having both would even be more so desirable but who's got both?

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Posted by HILLBILLYS BLU on 09-09-2013 03:51 PM:

( Just my two cents!) I agree with a lot of what has been said so far on this post. I agree, that several generations of Line (Family) Breeding is needed to establish, and/or lock the desired, or wanted genetic traits. However, I also believe without a selected outcross, the family breeding will only produce more of what is already there..... I think the litters that are produced will have a higher percentage, of commen to good dogs, instead of maybe the (Superstar's) that we all are lookin for. The question is ,,will that (Superstar) Reproduce his/her likeness?? I can't say, and I don't think anyone else can say either, for 100% certainty. I also don't think anybody can say, just breed to any one stud ,and solve all the breeds problems, because all crosses don't work, no matter how good the male, or female is.

My Opinion's Only! Not Intended To Offend Anyone that disagree's

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Posted by 408northville on 09-09-2013 05:14 PM:

Bill, you have a much better chance of finding and more important keeping what you want by keeping whole litters of family related hounds, but you have to start with very good hounds as close as possible to perfect. When I started I spend thousands and drove and flew all over the US, until I found the pair as close to what I was looking to start with.
As I continue to breed related hounds, looking for perfection and culling for any reason, I started strengthening the good genes and removing the undesirable genes. By doing so improving and fixing the good genes by pairing the good alleles, developing (mostly with the help of a good friend) a pure line able to breed true to type. When you outcross your starting all over, just guessing, unless you bring in the new blood a little at a time and even doing that you bring your IC to zero.
The way to tell a very good breeder is by how similar the offspring looks and performs. Nothing new for service dog breeders.
JTG

quote:
Originally posted by HILLBILLY'S BLU
( Just my two cents!) I agree with a lot of what has been said so far on this post. I agree, that several generations of Line (Family) Breeding is needed to establish, and/or lock the desired, or wanted genetic traits. However, I also believe without a selected outcross, the family breeding will only produce more of what is already there..... I think the litters that are produced will have a higher percentage, of commen to good dogs, instead of maybe the (Superstar's) that we all are lookin for. The question is ,,will that (Superstar) Reproduce his/her likeness?? I can't say, and I don't think anyone else can say either, for 100% certainty. I also don't think anybody can say, just breed to any one stud ,and solve all the breeds problems, because all crosses don't work, no matter how good the male, or female is.

My Opinion's Only! Not Intended To Offend Anyone that disagree's

Posted by okietreedog on 09-09-2013 05:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
there are hounds that carry Homozygous genes, which means they will pass that trait on no matter whay they are breed to.

Warning
Science lecture ahead,

you are foregeting the probabilty that those homozygous genes can be reccesive thus they are covered or masked if a dominnant trait is passed from the the other parent, a simple way to explain it is all longhorns are homozygous recceive for horns or pp All Angus bulls are supposed to be homozygous dominant PP thus crossing a angus and a longhorn all calves should be polled the offspring would be hetrozygous or Pp. if you crossed the offspring back on longhorns you would get 50% of the calves being polled Pp and 50% pp or homozygous horned. if you crossed the Pp offspring with each other 75% would be polled in apperance with 50% being hetroziogous Pp and 25% being homozygous Polled PP and 25% being homozygous horned or pp. The trick to this is the dog traits have not been fixed now if you could find a sex link trait like what guy ormistion talk about in this month book you might be getting somewhere because a male with his dams X gamete would give that x to all his female progeny.

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Posted by 408northville on 09-09-2013 06:12 PM:

I tried to read his recent article but kept falling asleep and read what you wrote below and in doing so I know what each of you know about genetics. Were talking about breeding world class hounds not cows.
What is your method and what is his method. Let's see it, mine is out there for everyone to see.
In addition if you breed for many years and your method works, you would see it in the offspring improvement, each of those many years.

quote:
Originally posted by okietreedog
Warning
Science lecture ahead,

you are foregeting the probabilty that those homozygous genes can be reccesive thus they are covered or masked if a dominnant trait is passed from the the other parent, a simple way to explain it is all longhorns are homozygous recceive for horns or pp All Angus bulls are supposed to be homozygous dominant PP thus crossing a angus and a longhorn all calves should be polled the offspring would be hetrozygous or Pp. if you crossed the offspring back on longhorns you would get 50% of the calves being polled Pp and 50% pp or homozygous horned. if you crossed the Pp offspring with each other 75% would be polled in apperance with 50% being hetroziogous Pp and 25% being homozygous Polled PP and 25% being homozygous horned or pp. The trick to this is the dog traits have not been fixed now if you could find a sex link trait like what guy ormistion talk about in this month book you might be getting somewhere because a male with his dams X gamete would give that x to all his female progeny.

Posted by max destruction on 09-09-2013 06:27 PM:

408 im not doubting your method but how is it working? Im still not seeing any bluedogs winning big?

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Posted by Blue Iron on 09-09-2013 06:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
408 im not doubting your method but how is it working? Im still not seeing any bluedogs winning big?

Maybe not a bunch of Blue dogs winning big, but there are some out there that win way more than they lose and do it all over the country.

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Posted by 408northville on 09-09-2013 07:01 PM:

Max,

I am not saying my hounds are better than anyone else. I can tell you that they are getting better and better using the method I describe. I have never been to competition hunt in my life, if I did go someone like you would have to help me with the rules. I can tell you that I have hunted with some very good hounds from hunters that do go to those type of hunts and mine did very well against some of the best out there and sad to say they were Walkers.
My true goal is not to win the big hunts but to improve the Bluetick hounds. I have been trying to bring things out but it's hard because people are set in there ways and resist change. I guess that's just people.
JTG

quote:
Originally posted by max destruction
408 im not doubting your method but how is it working? Im still not seeing any bluedogs winning big?

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