UKC Forums - Rules Proposal Results

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Rules Proposal Results (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928336439)

Posted by dixiedog on 09-04-2013 10:26 AM:

Yes, I do hunt the other registry and the countdown does make a difference. I wouldnt hunt a me to type of dog. Not my style and never will be.

Posted by JustinH23 on 09-04-2013 12:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SmokyMtWrangler
Yes I hunt the other registry regularly. I think it makes a huge difference especially when leaves are off. Take this scenario into consideration and you will see why I think it helps.

Dog A trees on four trees for first and first with no dog covering within two minutes. Three trees coons are scored giving dog 675+. The fourth tree is a slick and dog gets 225- for a nightly total of 450+.

Dog B covers on all four trees for 75 and 75 giving him 450+. Your cast winner would be Dog B due to both dogs having 450+ and Dog A having more minus.

Which dog would you rather have on your lead?????

Had the rule been changed the dog carrying the cast would be awarded the win.

@RedRocket- if mine can't cover in thirty seconds he doesn't need to be there and personally I don't want mine in the same area as another dog.

Why do you want a dog that makes a first and first slick to win? They should either finish the track, or go find another one.

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Posted by josh on 09-04-2013 01:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SmokyMtWrangler
Yes I hunt the other registry regularly. I think it makes a huge difference especially when leaves are off. Take this scenario into consideration and you will see why I think it helps.

Dog A trees on four trees for first and first with no dog covering within two minutes. Three trees coons are scored giving dog 675+. The fourth tree is a slick and dog gets 225- for a nightly total of 450+.

Dog B covers on all four trees for 75 and 75 giving him 450+. Your cast winner would be Dog B due to both dogs having 450+ and Dog A having more minus.

Which dog would you rather have on your lead?????

Had the rule been changed the dog carrying the cast would be awarded the win.

@RedRocket- if mine can't cover in thirty seconds he doesn't need to be there and personally I don't want mine in the same area as another dog.

I have seen that happen....It never occurred to me to change the rules so that the dog that messed up would get the CW.

Why not just eliminate 2nd 3rd and 4th tree altogether?

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Posted by max destruction on 09-04-2013 01:54 PM:

The countdown tree is for dogs that are working together to get there tree points they deserve,if yur a minute behind another dog you don't deserve points,that's got nothing todo with accuracy and if it takes your dog a minute to check a tree out it don't belong in hunts!

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Posted by JiM on 09-04-2013 02:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by awfred
Rule 5. CIRCLED AND DELETED POINTS:

4.) Passed with Amendment
Add to deleted points section:
If a majority is not reached to plus, minus or circle strike and tree points, when scoring trees and a hunting judge is used.

Amendment: When a majority is not reached and half of the votes favor minusing points when scoring a tree and a hunting judge is used.

I don't understand. What if two vote plus and two vote circle. Circle???

Yes, as I understand it, 2 votes to plus and two votes to circle is still circled as it always was.
The difference with the new rule is when you have two votes to MINUS and the other votes are plus or circle, you now delete.

I have no idea why or what brought this proposal about. If you hunt UKC for the next 100 years, you will never see this rule change make a difference in who wins a cast. Why change a rule that will never have ANY effect on the outcome of a cast? Can anyone answer that?

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Posted by SmokyMtWrangler on 09-04-2013 02:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JustinH23
Why do you want a dog that makes a first and first slick to win? They should either finish the track, or go find another one.

Did you miss the 1st/1st on three coon part. I would rather the dog that treed three coon and missed one win than the dog that rode coat tails all night win.

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Posted by SmokyMtWrangler on 09-04-2013 02:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Yes, as I understand it, 2 votes to plus and two votes to circle is still circled as it always was.
The difference with the new rule is when you have two votes to MINUS and the other votes are plus or circle, you now delete.

I have no idea why or what brought this proposal about. If you hunt UKC for the next 100 years, you will never see this rule change make a difference in who wins a cast. Why change a rule that will never have ANY effect on the outcome of a cast? Can anyone answer that?

Wondered the same thing myself.

Posted by SmokyMtWrangler on 09-04-2013 03:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
I have seen that happen....It never occurred to me to change the rules so that the dog that messed up would get the CW.

Why not just eliminate 2nd 3rd and 4th tree altogether?

It isn't to change the rules so the dog that messed up wins. The dog that had second and second and covered late in no way contributed to treeing the first three coons. If the rule had changed he would only be holding 300+ on the first three trees and the dog that treed them would get what he deserves since he did all the work.

Dogs still need awarded the minus they deserve but the way the rules are now they in certain situations can award a win to a backpacker. All in all the proposal didn't pass so we are beating a dead horse.

Posted by JiM on 09-04-2013 03:15 PM:

My impression has always been that the countdown rule is viewed by many of the longtime UKC hunters has being the most basic difference between UKC and PKC, aside from winning with plus points verses winning with no points and I think we all agree that will never even be discussed by many of us.
The boards of the Breed Associations are made up of longtime, hardcore UKC disciples, as they should be and those guys are prollly never gonna give in on the countdown no matter what any polls may show, no matter how you made the case, no matter how convincing the argument. . They might as well just write this one in stone cause it ain't never gonna change. You can hunt UKC or you can hunt PKC or you can hunt both but the differences between the two are not going away and that is prolly a good thing.

Posted by runnin rebels on 09-04-2013 03:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by SmokyMtWrangler
Yes I hunt the other registry regularly. I think it makes a huge difference especially when leaves are off. Take this scenario into consideration and you will see why I think it helps.

Dog A trees on four trees for first and first with no dog covering within two minutes. Three trees coons are scored giving dog 675+. The fourth tree is a slick and dog gets 225- for a nightly total of 450+.

Dog B covers on all four trees for 75 and 75 giving him 450+. Your cast winner would be Dog B due to both dogs having 450+ and Dog A having more minus.

Which dog would you rather have on your lead?????

Had the rule been changed the dog carrying the cast would be awarded the win.

@RedRocket- if mine can't cover in thirty seconds he doesn't need to be there and personally I don't want mine in the same area as another dog.

YOUR MATH IS WRONG

dog a +225 +225 +225 -225 = 450+

dog b +150 +150 +150 -150 = 300+

so your superstar first and first dog would still win the cast

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Posted by josh on 09-04-2013 03:39 PM:

I think you are right JiM.

I don't really care one way or the other......I have never worried much about dogs that cover 3 minutes late anyway.

To me this is like changing The "non-hunting dog" time from 30 minutes to 15.......That change has rocked UKC to the core....

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Posted by SmokyMtWrangler on 09-04-2013 04:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by runnin rebels
YOUR MATH IS WRONG

dog a +225 +225 +225 -225 = 450+

dog b +150 +150 +150 -150 = 300+

so your superstar first and first dog would still win the cast

Glad someone can do math. I was frustrated when typing this due to trying to download Birdseye, lol. My mistake should have used the calculator.

Posted by joey on 09-04-2013 04:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
My impression has always been that the countdown rule is viewed by many of the longtime UKC hunters has being the most basic difference between UKC and PKC, aside from winning with plus points verses winning with no points and I think we all agree that will never even be discussed by many of us.
The boards of the Breed Associations are made up of longtime, hardcore UKC disciples, as they should be and those guys are prollly never gonna give in on the countdown no matter what any polls may show, no matter how you made the case, no matter how convincing the argument. . They might as well just write this one in stone cause it ain't never gonna change. You can hunt UKC or you can hunt PKC or you can hunt both but the differences between the two are not going away and that is prolly a good thing.

And it is as simple as that. It will never happen just like PKC will never move first tree up to 125 to help beat the babbling dogs. It just looks too much like the enemy.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 09-04-2013 05:07 PM:

Jim. Your right. That's exactly why the countdown want pass. Its the older folks. Im not saying they are bad either. They just don't want it. One day these folks will be gone. When they are replaced. I bet it will pass. Course we may be wrong but what's the ages of all breed reps I wonder.

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Posted by josh on 09-04-2013 05:11 PM:

Geez GA, You better be carefull who you are calling old.

You been posting here 10 years, You must be getting a little long in the tooth too.....

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Posted by Marcus McDaniel on 09-04-2013 05:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
My impression has always been that the countdown rule is viewed by many of the longtime UKC hunters has being the most basic difference between UKC and PKC, aside from winning with plus points verses winning with no points and I think we all agree that will never even be discussed by many of us.
The boards of the Breed Associations are made up of longtime, hardcore UKC disciples, as they should be and those guys are prollly never gonna give in on the countdown no matter what any polls may show, no matter how you made the case, no matter how convincing the argument. . They might as well just write this one in stone cause it ain't never gonna change. You can hunt UKC or you can hunt PKC or you can hunt both but the differences between the two are not going away and that is prolly a good thing.

JIM IS RIGHT. DOESNT MATTER HOW MUCH YOU ARGUE OR EVEN IF YOUR RIGHT, THE BREED ASSOCATIOINS WILL NEVER GIVE IN. BUT I THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE TO VOTE HOW THE MAJORITY OF THAT BREED FEELS NOT HOW "THEY" JUST FEEL.

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Posted by Marcus McDaniel on 09-04-2013 05:38 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
And it is as simple as that. It will never happen just like PKC will never move first tree up to 125 to help beat the babbling dogs. It just looks too much like the enemy.

VERY TRUE. IT LOOKS LIKE TO ME THAT BOTH KC'S WOULD ADOBT THE BEST RULES FROM ONE ANOTHER AN MAKE IT TO WHERE THE " BEST " DOG WINS. SO SAD

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Posted by HOBO on 09-04-2013 07:07 PM:

quote:
Originally poSmokyMtWranglersted by SmokyMtWrangler

@RedRocket- if mine can't cover in thirty seconds he doesn't need to be there and personally I don't want mine in the same area as another dog.

This right here is why people want the rule changed... BUT when the hunts were first started the whole ideal behind drawing dogs into cast was to see who had the better dog at striking and treeing a coon. Not who's dog could get off to its self the most and have its own coon. The whole ideal was to see who had the fastest strike dog and which dog could move that track to the tree.

The ideal of coonhounds not working together is not what this sport was started as...

What I dont get is if you already hunt PKC hunts and enjoy them spooooooooo
much better than UKC hunts why are you trying to force PKC rules down the throats of those who wish to hunt UKC?

This isn't directed at SmokyMtWrangler... Just his post reply caught my eye first.

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Posted by Fred Harroun on 09-04-2013 07:18 PM:

Good post hobo,when these hunts started they were suppose to hunt together to see who had the best dog it use to state that in the rules that they had to hunt together.dogs are pack animals decended from the wolf.wolves hunt in pack heck a single wolf would starve to death having to hunt by itself.

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Posted by chuck west on 09-04-2013 07:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fred Harroun
Good post hobo,when these hunts started they were suppose to hunt together to see who had the best dog it use to state that in the rules that they had to hunt together.dogs are pack animals decended from the wolf.wolves hunt in pack heck a single wolf would starve to death having to hunt by itself.

Fred and Hobo have the two most common sense posts on here .

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Posted by kayapellijed390 on 09-04-2013 08:28 PM:

Forget about wolves, dogs got bred from wolves to serve specific purposes for man. What was the original purpose of breeding tree dogs? Simple- they where bred for the sole purpose of catching fur. Now ask yourself what kind of dogs are gonna put the most fur in the bed of the truck at the end of the night. Is it 4 dogs following each other around all night and treeing one coon together, or is it four dogs all parked under four different coon?

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Posted by john Duemmer on 09-04-2013 08:28 PM:

Why dont you guys name a few real top hounds that were pack type dogs??? cause i have never seen one.

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Posted by JustinH23 on 09-04-2013 08:41 PM:

Here's what I would propose:

Dogs that do not show a track to a tree, and cover another dog, be scratched.
If a dog shows a track to the tree, leave it alone. Or hunt the other KC.

Posted by Dale Young on 09-04-2013 08:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by chuck west
Fred and Hobo have the two most common sense posts on here .

I agree, some of these posts sound like a bunch of Marines complaining about the National Guard training camp .
Quit changing the rules unless it's REALLY REALLY important and maybe clean up the ACTUAL rule book a little bit so we don't have to buy an ADVISOR to know what it says .

Posted by HOBO on 09-04-2013 09:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Why dont you guys name a few real top hounds that were pack type dogs??? cause i have never seen one.

You know what else you dont see? The owners of those top hounds on a message board complaining about getting beat by a dog that covered theirs.

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